Insurrectionist removed from office under the 14th amendment.

[Truth in love]

They were specifically trying to prevent the certification of the election by Congress, a Constitutional duty. To do that *would* be a coup.



What did they do to overturn Trump's legitimate election in 2020?

Lets see trying to impeach trump for an action Biden actually did
falsifying information for FISA warrants to spy on his campaign .
The russa collusion hoax etc.

 

[Truth in love]

Taking active steps to prevent the Congress from carrying out its duty to certify an election so that they could ensure their chosen candidate gets in?

Yes, that is treason.

How about giving billions in military aid to a national enemy?

 

[Truth in love]

What actual evidence do you have for abuse (as opposed to simple mistakes)? The FISA system is problematic in many ways, but this is not one of them. The judges were mostly Republican appointees.

Obama official made 'hundreds of unmasking requests,' GOP chairman says

 

[Truth in love]

The nutjobs were the ones going after Pence with the intent of killing him. Same for Pelosi.Those nutjobs were Trump supporters trying to overthrow an election.

It only takes a few nutjobs to produce an insurrection.

Okay and the millions rioting for years and killing people with the endorsement and finical support of many in congress is what?

 

[Truth in love]

Pot meet kettle.

The right flipped their lid over Clinton and Biden's sexually immoral behavior, but Trump's sexually deviant behavior is excused.

An Open Letter to Trump’s Evangelical Defenders

Trump-Loving Christians Owe Bill Clinton an Apology

Evangelicals slammed Bill Clinton's sexual misconduct. So why does Trump get a pass?

Evangelicals Who Denounced Bill Clinton Affair, Silent On Donald Trump And Stormy Daniels

Unfortunately, these prominent evangelical leaders have also publicly exposed their hypocrisy when it concerns Trump.

Pat Robertson.

Pat Robertson Calls for Clinton's Impeachment

Standing by Donald Trump, Pat Robertson calls lewd video ‘macho talk’

Jerry Falwell, Jr.

Watch: Jerry Falwell Jr. goes after Clinton at Republican National Convention

Evangelical Jerry Falwell Jr. defends Trump: Jesus “never told Caesar how to run Rome”

James Dobson.

He publicly condemned Bill Clinton in 1998: "Character does matter. You can't run a family, let alone a country without it. How foolish to believe that a person who lacks honesty and moral integrity is qualified to lead a nation and the world."

Source: What James Dobson Said in 1998 About Moral Character and the Presidency

He enthusiastically endorsed Donald Trump in 2016. And in defense of Donald Trump, he said, "I’m not under any illusions that he is an outstanding moral example. It’s a cliché but true: We are electing a commander-in-chief, not a theologian-in-chief.”

Source: I’m an evangelical. The religious right leaders who support Trump don’t speak for me.

Its a problem, NOT being a Republican and not making such excuses for Trump. I'm back to the point of why so many only want to hold Trump to a given behavior standard and not their own party?

 

[Truth in love]

Not your call.



That's not a rebuttal to that riot being an insurrection. Of course it was a riot.



Nobody accused them of being very bright, just traitorous. That's the kind of person drawn to Trump. They're easily convinced to attack the government. The bought the Qanon nonsense. They bought the election hoax disinformation. Of course they looked like the Beverly Hillbillies.



It was a violent and illegal attack on the seat of government while performing a constitutional function intended to prevent the certification of the election and the peaceful transfer of power. And once again, nobody is accusing Trump of being a cunning strategist. Have you noticed how many things he's failed at in the last two years? The fake electors thing was pretty hare-brained. Five dozen failed lawsuits was not too smart. Recounts confirming the loss weren't too smart. Calling up the Georgia Secretary of State while being recorded asking him to manufacture thousands of votes will likely result in another conviction for Trump. Keeping state secrets that the government knew were there and lying about it was stunningly stupid. So why would anybody be surprised that the insurrection failed, too? What doesn't fail for this guy? Watch him lose his Special Master now on appeal, his one tiny legal "victory" that never had any chance of helping him.



No. We're all making that clam now. Trump tried to reverse the election results. He'll be prosecuted for it more than once in the near future. Charges will include fomenting an insurrection to obstruct Congress in its constitutional duty, attempting to place fraudulent electors, and illegally attempting to interfere in the Georgia election.



The leaders of the Oath Keepers and the leaders of the Proud Boys have been charged with seditious conspiracy.



Irrelevant. It was so ill-conceived that it couldn't have worked. The fact that it didn't is irrelevant to the criminal charges that have followed and are yet to come.

You've yet to see any evidence that you don't want to see. You make the same mistake the creationists make with their incredulity fallacies - they just can't see it - and think that that has any persuasive power. They seem to think that they are accepted as standards of what is known or knowable or possible, and that if they're unaware of something that that is meaningful. Your inability to see what is right in front of your face will cost you. You're going to witness the events of the next few months and years as a partisan injustice, which will be very frustrating and galling to you. Too bad you won't be able to take pride in the system if it finds the will to convict this man of his crimes against the nation, far more threatening to America's future than 9/11 was.

So to sum things up

I’m supposed to believe is that dozens of mid-level rioters and a maybe 2-3 people planning on murder means the entire 80,000 of so people committed insurrection/sedition/treason. That Trump with all his ego and everything is the biggest and best relied on grandma’s and hicks to secure 4 more years in office. Also thinking they have any kind of point or valid issue is a delusion or treason.

I need to believe that a few yahoo’s are an insurrection, but 15-26 million people taking part in organized often violent protests, several murders, trying to breach security at the white house, way over a billion dollars in damage and demands that all but overturn the Constitution is not in any way a coup/insurrection etc. and that support of them is normal.

I also have to believe that the Obama admin violating FISA laws, conspiracy between Russians and the Clinton campaign and the FBI lying under oath to spy on Trump and to try to remove Trump from office for actions Biden actually did (and openly bragged about) are all good valid and not a coup/insurrection etc. Even though such actions are for the clear intent of overturning the election and did have a decent chance of actually working.

Additionally, that when a Democrat says an election was stolen that is fine but a Republican saying it is treason.

May I strongly suggest anyone actually believes this stay far away from Tide Pods and people selling bridges,.

 

[Truth in love]

Really? Gaddafi had about 70 people in total when he seized Libya, and the coup was largely bloodless. Castro had more when he initially tried seizing power in Cuba, but many were killed, and he ended up with a much smaller force.

I'm not sure that scale has much to do with it.

So intent? We have clear intent to wrongfully oust Trump from office. Are all those people being tried for treason or is it only wrong if the right does it?

 

[Truth in love]

Exactly!



And this was why I asked the question.

A riot is not an insurrection. A riot involving people storming the Capital where votes are being counted and where people are doing things like replacing American flags with the person they want installed as President, threatening to hang the person overseeing the vote, and clearly representing the former President claiming fraud: that is an insurrection.

All that is clearly visible in media and testimonies from the people involved. Ignoring it is either bias or ignorance, and you don't strike me as someone who is ignorant.

I am biased: Trump is a narcissistic shyster in my opinion. But I am basing my assessment of the January 6th riot as an insurrection on the very clear intentions of that crowd. Do you really not think they were there to stop the counting of votes? Do you not think they were there because they wanted Trump as President and not Joe Biden?

I'm pretty sure Trump is narcissistic and a jerk. He also broke the law, but its utterly detached from reality to pretend that such is odd or rare in DC. The people crying the loudest over Trumps errors don't have a problem with the Dems crimes and abuses of power. That is a big problem

A litte cut n paste I was working on


So what I’m supposed to believe is that dozens of mid-level rioters and a maybe 2-3 people planning on murder means the entire 80,000 of so people committed insurrection/sedition/treason. That Trump with all his ego and everything is the best relied on grandma’s and hicks to secure 4 more years in office. Also thinking they have any kind of point or valid issue is a delusion or treason.

To accept the narrative being advocated. I need to believe that a few yahoo’s are an insurrection, but 15-26 million people taking part in organized often violent protests, several murders, trying to breach security at the white house, way over a billion in damage and demands that all but overturn the Constitution is not in any way a coup/insurrection etc. and that support of them is normal.

I also have to believe that the Obama admin violating FISA laws, conspiracy between Russians and the Clinton campaign and the FBI lying under oath to spy on Trump and to try to remove Trump from office for actions Biden actually did (and openly bragged about) are all good valid and not a coup/insurrection etc. Even though such actions are for the clear intent of overturning the election and did have a decent chance of actually working.

Additionally, that when a Democrat says an election was stolen that is fine but a Republican saying it is treason.

Anyone willing to swallow this please avoid anyone offering to sell you a bridge.

Again for any who are confused. I do have several issues with Trump. I do think he broke the law. However, I have yet to see anything he did that is beyond what others in office have done. Trying to be a just person I cannot have 2 entirely different standards for the behavior of people in our political system.

 

[F1fan]

LOL your choice for "reputable media" is really funny.

No, it's reputable. That you laugh tells us you are biased and have poor judgment.

The ABC article sure looks like nothing being planned or plotted. Also the false labeling the Oath Keepers as anti government makes it celar that un biased reporting is not their thing.

The stories literally describe the plan the proud boys developed. These were revealed in court filings. This means there was a conspiracy as well, which is multiple people being involved with a planned crime.

 

[Stevicus]

There is always a real danger of the government being overthrown. That is a thing that is capable of happening, and it is definitely capable of happening if there is a large enough group of people - both within and without positions of power - who want it to happen. There are a not insignificant number of people within America's second largest political party whose intentions were to overturn a democratic election, and January 6th was a manifestation of that intent. If you cannot take this sort of thing seriously, they'll just try again with more organised and potentially more successful methods. Complacency is the death of democracy.

There is always an outside danger of that happening, but at that particular time and place, it simply wasn't going to happen. Sure, if there's a large enough group of people - and more importantly, if there's military support for such an action - then anything is possible. But with the numbers involved and the fact that the military was clearly not going to support any kind of coup, it was simply not going to happen. Not on that day.

All of what you're talking about here is theoretical and did not reflect the actual events which happened.

Your democracy is that fragile. Look at how easily one man has managed to turn an entire political party into his personal cult of personality, and how many people now believe that the Republican party (now explicitly a party that is opposed to democracy) losing any vote is a result of fraud. You cannot afford to lessen the severity of your language or downplay this as less serious than it is.

It seems to me that it does a far greater disservice to democracy to portray it as so fragile and weak as to be so easily manipulated and subverted like this. As Lincoln put it: “You can fool all of the people some of the time; you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.”

To suggest that "one man" did it all by himself is to give far too much credit to that man. He never struck me as all that diabolical or some kind of fiendish mastermind. I know some people liked to portray it that way, but that was too much melodrama for me. Too much comic book opera, with supervillains and superheroes. You think that I'm not taking it seriously, but I do take it seriously. But I look at it realistically, not through the lens of some horror film or view it as some kind of pitched epic battle between good and evil.

Um... No?


It makes a huge amount of difference to label an insurrection and insurrection because forces are at play in your country that will try and paint it as a peaceful protest, or the insurrectionists as innocent political prisoners. They are doing everything they can to justify the actions of the insurrectionists, to absolve politicians of their influence, to continue to sew doubt in democracy and to paint themselves as the real heroes of the people. You cannot cede ground to them by lessening what they have done. Such complacency achieves nothing but giving them more rope with which to hang you.

As I recall, you do not reside within the United States, correct? Can you at least give me credit for understanding what's going on inside my own country? Do you seriously believe that I don't know or that I can't see what's going on?

Strictly speaking, if they were insurrectionists, then they made war against the United States, which makes them traitors according to the Constitution. That calls for the death penalty. If you were in a position to do so, would you sentence them to death? Would you be able to carry out the sentence personally? If not, why not?

At the very beginning of this post you asserted that the insurrection leading to an overthrow of the government was a "logistical impossibility".

Yes, at that particular time and place, it was a logistical impossibility. However, that's not the same thing as asserting that the government is totally immune to overthrow. It largely depends on the standing military and which direction they take. A few hundred people taking over a single building, even if that building is the Capitol, just isn't going to accomplish that goal. The entire notion is completely absurd.

You're right, in a way. It would take more. For example, it would take them doing something like this and for people to play it off as not that serious a threat, allowing them leway to set up and get away with doing a worse thing next time.

What leeway? Look, I wasn't in charge of security at the Capitol that day. They knew full well that there was going to be a gathering at the Capitol. It was scheduled as a public protest, and it was announced on national media. People flew in from all over the country. It was no secret that they were planning a protest. They should have had more security, possibly national guard troops. Please don't try to blame the events on me or claim that I'm giving them "leeway."

I'm sorry, but no. Taking insurrection seriously and making sure we correctly label those who commit it or attempt to subvert democracy is not "just as bad" as committing insurrection or subverting democracy. That is absurd.

I was referring to McCarthyism and the belief that the government should be allowed to do whatever they want or label people however they want all in the name of "defending freedom, democracy, and the American way of life." It's easy for you to talk, since you don't even live here.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So to sum things up

I’m supposed to believe is that dozens of mid-level rioters and a maybe 2-3 people planning on murder means the entire 80,000 of so people committed insurrection/sedition/treason. That Trump with all his ego and everything is the biggest and best relied on grandma’s and hicks to secure 4 more years in office. Also thinking they have any kind of point or valid issue is a delusion or treason.

I need to believe that a few yahoo’s are an insurrection, but 15-26 million people taking part in organized often violent protests, several murders, trying to breach security at the white house, way over a billion dollars in damage and demands that all but overturn the Constitution is not in any way a coup/insurrection etc. and that support of them is normal.

I also have to believe that the Obama admin violating FISA laws, conspiracy between Russians and the Clinton campaign and the FBI lying under oath to spy on Trump and to try to remove Trump from office for actions Biden actually did (and openly bragged about) are all good valid and not a coup/insurrection etc. Even though such actions are for the clear intent of overturning the election and did have a decent chance of actually working.

Additionally, that when a Democrat says an election was stolen that is fine but a Republican saying it is treason.

May I strongly suggest anyone actually believes this stay far away from Tide Pods and people selling bridges,.

Watch the hearings. You are woefully uninformed on this.

Or even just check out a YouTube video of the giant crowd chanting "Hang Mike Pence!" A crowd that you inaccurately claim here as "2-3 people planning on murder."

Your Whataboutism is also duly noted and irrelevant.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm pretty sure Trump is narcissistic and a jerk. He also broke the law, but its utterly detached from reality to pretend that such is odd or rare in DC. The people crying the loudest over Trumps errors don't have a problem with the Dems crimes and abuses of power. That is a big problem

A litte cut n paste I was working on


So what I’m supposed to believe is that dozens of mid-level rioters and a maybe 2-3 people planning on murder means the entire 80,000 of so people committed insurrection/sedition/treason. That Trump with all his ego and everything is the best relied on grandma’s and hicks to secure 4 more years in office. Also thinking they have any kind of point or valid issue is a delusion or treason.

To accept the narrative being advocated. I need to believe that a few yahoo’s are an insurrection, but 15-26 million people taking part in organized often violent protests, several murders, trying to breach security at the white house, way over a billion in damage and demands that all but overturn the Constitution is not in any way a coup/insurrection etc. and that support of them is normal.

I also have to believe that the Obama admin violating FISA laws, conspiracy between Russians and the Clinton campaign and the FBI lying under oath to spy on Trump and to try to remove Trump from office for actions Biden actually did (and openly bragged about) are all good valid and not a coup/insurrection etc. Even though such actions are for the clear intent of overturning the election and did have a decent chance of actually working.

Additionally, that when a Democrat says an election was stolen that is fine but a Republican saying it is treason.

Anyone willing to swallow this please avoid anyone offering to sell you a bridge.

Again for any who are confused. I do have several issues with Trump. I do think he broke the law. However, I have yet to see anything he did that is beyond what others in office have done. Trying to be a just person I cannot have 2 entirely different standards for the behavior of people in our political system.

He broke the law but who cares because some other people could've broken laws too.
LOL Try that one in court.

 

[Truth in love]

No, it's reputable. That you laugh tells us you are biased and have poor judgment.


The stories literally describe the plan the proud boys developed. These were revealed in court filings. This means there was a conspiracy as well, which is multiple people being involved with a planned crime.

Pot shots at my judgement and making up stuff.

Do you have anything useful to add?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really 75 or so million supporters, military at this commend and mr big ego Trump was going to rely on grandma and a guy in buckskins to overthrow the US Government??

Even those around Trump criticize him for being a stupid arseling, or if you want a direct quote he is a "goddamned idiot."

 

[SkepticThinker]

Pot shots at my judgement and making up stuff.

Do you have anything useful to add?

That poster actually provided you with a rebuttal and some actual useful facts.
You brushed it off.
Again.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, it's reputable. That you laugh tells us you are biased and have poor judgment.

The stories literally describe the plan the proud boys developed. These were revealed in court filings. This means there was a conspiracy as well, which is multiple people being involved with a planned crime.

Speaking as a former Republican and lifelong conservative, I've learned one thing about Trump supporters over the past five years or so, and that is that they're typically impossible to reason with. If you happen to encounter one who will listen to you and honestly consider what you have to say that counteracts their personal political views, then this particular Trump supporter is the exception and not the rule. We can continually disprove their regurgitated political rhetoric, such as the debunked claim that the election was stolen from Trump, but they will cling tenaciously to this fabrication for dear life no matter what legal evidence we present to the contrary. We might as well be trying to reason with a brick wall and expect the wall to listen to us and act rationally itself. Since Trump's first presidential campaign in 2015, I've dealt with more than my fair share of these people since I live among them and because the majority of my extended family are unfortunately very devout Trump supporters themselves. I've shared some of my personal experiences with Trump supporters, including with my relatives, in older threads. It was a bad experience to say the least.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I’m supposed to believe is that dozens of mid-level rioters and a maybe 2-3 people planning on murder means the entire 80,000 of so people committed insurrection/sedition/treason.

No, you're not expected to believe that. I don't, although I confess that I don't know what makes a rioter mid-level. Neither does the DOJ. Just under a thousand were arrested. And frankly, most of us aren't to interested in those people apart from seeing them in prison for several years each. We're more interested in the few dozen insurrectionists at the top, beginning with Trump. Meadows and Bannon will probably go down, along with Clark and Eastman. Also, congresspersons who aided and abetted the enemy.

But that's just the insurrection. Other crimes surrounding the attempted coup need to be investigated and the relevant players prosecuted, which will include people like Giuliani and Graham. Everybody who broke the law committed crimes against the United States, and needs to be brought to justice. You want criminals brought to justice, don't you? Let's hear what juries have to say about them, and incarcerate the guilty ones. Surely you don't object to that.

That Trump with all his ego and everything is the biggest and best relied on grandma’s and hicks to secure 4 more years in office. Also thinking they have any kind of point or valid issue is a delusion or treason.

It is very easy to believe that Trump made such errors. He's not a smart man, and he doesn't do much well. This man lost money with casinos. He kept stolen state secrets in his basement even after knowing that the feds were on to him. He let himself be recorded attempting to tamper with the GA election. His life has been nothing but failure since the 2020 election. The only thing resembling a win in all that time was getting a Special Master, and that won't help him. It's highly likely to be overturned on appeal before month's end, and won't protect him or delay matters significantly if it isn't. He's low intelligence and impulsive.

I need to believe that a few yahoo’s are an insurrection, but 15-26 million people taking part in organized often violent protests, several murders, trying to breach security at the white house, way over a billion dollars in damage and demands that all but overturn the Constitution is not in any way a coup/insurrection etc. and that support of them is normal.

Yes, that part is correct, albeit incomplete. A few hundred armed, violent, trespassing yahoos attempting to prevent Congress from complete its constitutional duties is an insurrection, but a few yahoos is not. That could describe a beer-soaked backyard barbecue.

And yes, nothing coming after the word "but" above is insurrection, but is also not normal. It been decades since government has provoked race riots, and to my knowledge, never the president.

Incidentally, I support BLM and consider their reaction to systemic racism justified.

I also have to believe that the Obama admin violating FISA laws, conspiracy between Russians and the Clinton campaign and the FBI lying under oath to spy on Trump and to try to remove Trump from office for actions Biden actually did (and openly bragged about) are all good valid and not a coup/insurrection etc. Even though such actions are for the clear intent of overturning the election and did have a decent chance of actually working.

No, you don't need to believe that, either. I don't.

when a Democrat says an election was stolen that is fine but a Republican saying it is treason.

No, you're not expected to believe that, either. I don't.

 

[metis]

What did they do to overturn Trump's legitimate election in 2020?

I think you meant 2016.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

People are having their freedoms of choice stripped away and your right, womans reproduction rights are back under threat, yet the rule by mandate persists. Mostly by ban/mandate happy Democrats who strip away freedoms of choice well more than Republicans do. It may seem over small things , but small things lead to larger things and larger things lead to humongous things. That violence comes from that fear of more of this practice. Like the new deal mandates forcing people to go in a direction they don't like.

That's how it works and the left just got a taste of that particular medicine.

Question is, what's next?

Still having trouble seeing which "freedoms of choice" you refer to, since you never do what most of us would do, and include a "such as......" clause.

Do you mean you're unhappy about losing your freedom to spit in people's faces? To pee on their front doorstep? To drive around town with a toddler sitting on the hood of the car? To smoke and blow poison in the faces of diners in a restaurant? To poop in somebody's chocolate cake (okay, that was funny in the movies)?

Or maybe it's the freedom to keep black people out the voting booth? Is that what bugs? Or the freedom to fire off your AK weapons in the school yard, just for kicks?

Or is it that you object that you don't have the right to force other people to live according to your personal preferences, or to have school boards mandate teaching the topics that you prefer, or that you are not authorized to remove books you don't like from public libraries?

Which ones? What are you not permitted to do that you think you should have the right to do? I think you owe us all an answer to that, since you bring it up every 11.31 seconds.

 

[Truth in love]

No, you're not expected to believe that. I don't, although I confess that I don't know what makes a rioter mid-level. Neither does the DOJ. Just under a thousand were arrested. And frankly, most of us aren't to interested in those people apart from seeing them in prison for several years each. We're more interested in the few dozen insurrectionists at the top, beginning with Trump. Meadows and Bannon will probably go down, along with Clark and Eastman. Also, congresspersons who aided and abetted the enemy.

But that's just the insurrection. Other crimes surrounding the attempted coup need to be investigated and the relevant players prosecuted, which will include people like Giuliani and Graham. Everybody who broke the law committed crimes against the United States, and needs to be brought to justice. You want criminals brought to justice, don't you? Let's hear what juries have to say about them, and incarcerate the guilty ones. Surely you don't object to that.



It is very easy to believe that Trump made such errors. He's not a smart man, and he doesn't do much well. This man lost money with casinos. He kept stolen state secrets in his basement even after knowing that the feds were on to him. He let himself be recorded attempting to tamper with the GA election. His life has been nothing but failure since the 2020 election. The only thing resembling a win in all that time was getting a Special Master, and that won't help him. It's highly likely to be overturned on appeal before month's end, and won't protect him or delay matters significantly if it isn't. He's low intelligence and impulsive.



Yes, that part is correct, albeit incomplete. A few hundred armed, violent, trespassing yahoos attempting to prevent Congress from complete its constitutional duties is an insurrection, but a few yahoos is not. That could describe a beer-soaked backyard barbecue.

And yes, nothing coming after the word "but" above is insurrection, but is also not normal. It been decades since government has provoked race riots, and to my knowledge, never the president.

Incidentally, I support BLM and consider their reaction to systemic racism justified.



No, you don't need to believe that, either. I don't.



No, you're not expected to believe that, either. I don't.

Well I wish you peace even though you are supporting those engage in the violent over through of the nation.