"Internalized Homophobia"?

[StarryNightshade]

A while back, I made a thread on my issues with the LGBT community and the consequential apathy in which I was feeling towards it. About a week ago, an incident occurred where I was basically accused of being a "self-hating gay" and added more fuel to my apathy fire.

About a week ago, I was in a rather anxious/depressive mood, so I decided to watch some YouTube videos to try and get myself out of my slump. I don't know how, as I wasn't watching any videos of this sort, but the following video came up as a "recommended viewing". My curiosity got the better of me and I gave it a click.

Spoiler: It's not quite NSFW, but just in case

[youtube]6qwpK3BN0PE[/youtube]
Kevin Mikal - Candy Yum Yum Music Video - YouTube

Given the mood I was in, and that people on Facebook make political and social posts all the time, I gave my opinion on the video. Censoring myself as I used rather strong language in my original post, I basically said that such "entertainment" in the LGBT community is drivel and only reinforces the stereotype that to be gay is to be a "glitter-farting, fairy ***". Keep in mind that I did not call anyone that, but said that such videos reinforce the stereotype. After a while I deleted the post, as I thought it was too antagonistic, and made a follow up post about how I did not mean to offend anyone and that there is nothing inherently wrong with being naturally femme or liking things like glitter or pink. Once again clarifying that, when what the video depicted what the great majority of gay entertainment shows, it does a great disservice to the diversity of LGBT. That it, basically, would be like a music video depicting Jewish stereotypes or black face. Would people simply have to "get over" those; as it is meant for entertainment? Or would people justifiably be annoyed (or even offended).

Well, eventually an internet ex-friend of mine saw my post, said that I was exactly like the bullies who used to call him "******" and shoved him in his locker, deleted me as a friend, and made two passive aggressive posts about me. One of which accused me of being an internalized homophobe (complete with that stupid #byefelicia) and another which said that it was people like me who shame others for liking pink, glitter, and are femme. That it basically didn't matter if such videos depicted "the gay version of blackface".

We eventually did message each other about the incident, cleared up a few things, and he deleted the two posts. However, I really have no interest in adding him back as a friend, and given that he hasn't done it either, Im guessing he has no interest as well. Which brings me to my question:

Why does simply having a strong opinion (even if it's negative) against the status quo of what it means to be gay bring on accusations of being an "internalized homophobe"?

Also, just FYI, I'm one to take responsibility for what I did, and fully admit that the original post I made should have been worded better. That I may have overreacted to the music video in the first place.

 

[Drolefille]

Starry, I can't deal with you changing names.

Question, is the person who made the video gay?

 

[StarryNightshade]

Starry, I can't deal with you changing names.

Question, is the person who made the video gay?

Haha, if you want to still call me Starry, go on ahead.

Yes, the person who made the video is gay.

 

[Draka]

I'm sorry, the only thing I could think of watching that video was..."hey it's Willam! I love Willam! He looks so awesome there."

I think you're entitled to your opinion, and you may very well have a point. Whether people want to hear it is something else though while still striving for equality, even if not perpetuating the stereotype might actually help that cause. Then again, I may not have right to speak on this according to many people being as I'm straight.

 

[Drolefille]

Haha, if you want to still call me Starry, go on ahead.

Yes, the person who made the video is gay.

I'll forget and start calling you Batman Fish (Get it, Dark Knight of the Sole?)

Anyway it's different to me if someone from within a culture does it vs if someone outside the culture does it. A gay guy playing up the stereotype - which is still a valid part of gay culture - isn't the same as a straight guy mocking the gay stereotype. Same as a blackface minstrel show (or even the old minstrel shows done by black people because that was the only work they could get) is mockery, not a representation of the culture.

All that stuff is still part of gay culture, right? It's just not the part that represents you. To me, that would mean being mad at the people who assume it represents ALL gay people not the people who do it.



Like, I hate the makeup and primping and all that STUFF that comes along with the stereotype of being a woman, but I'm still being misogynistic if I hate on women for doing that stuff. It's culturally expected, but some women love it. (And some guys love it too!) So I understand your sentiment, just think it was misdirected I guess?

Sorry I rambled.

 

[StarryNightshade]

I'll forget and start calling you Batman Fish (Get it, Dark Knight of the Sole?)

Lol, it's all good. I actually requested to change it back to my old username. I actually kinda miss it.

Anyway it's different to me if someone from within a culture does it vs if someone outside the culture does it. A gay guy playing up the stereotype - which is still a valid part of gay culture - isn't the same as a straight guy mocking the gay stereotype. Same as a blackface minstrel show (or even the old minstrel shows done by black people because that was the only work they could get) is mockery, not a representation of the culture.

I agree that it's definitely different if someone outside of the culture is the one who does it, but to me, it's kinda worse when someone from within the culture is the one doing something like this. It's almost like they know better, but still do it, because they know it will garner mass appeal and views. There's no integrity involved. Just a way to make a quick buck and cheap laugh.

All that stuff is still part of gay culture, right? It's just not the part that represents you. To me, that would mean being mad at the people who assume it represents ALL gay people not the people who do it.

Fair enough.

However, even though many people will get the "joke" and understand that this is not what all gay people do, there are just as many who see stuff like this and assume that it is what means to be a gay man. Besides, and this is a personal issue of mine coming out right now, should we be really promoting a culture that highly values materialism, vapidness, over-sexualized everything, and internal discrimination (like any gay male who doesn't fit the twink or Adonis body types)?

Like, I hate the makeup and primping and all that STUFF that comes along with the stereotype of being a woman, but I'm still being misogynistic if I hate on women for doing that stuff. It's culturally expected, but some women love it. (And some guys love it too!) So I understand your sentiment, just think it was misdirected I guess?

Again, fair enough.

However, again, just like there are some people who are challenging the notion that it is expected for women to wear make-up, couldn't something like this also be challenged. To show that, while it's fine to wear pink, like glitter, be a very sexual person etc., that it shouldn't be an expectation. All simply because you are a member of the particular sub-culture?

Sorry I rambled.

No problem. I'm just happy people actually responded.

 

[StarryNightshade]

I think you're entitled to your opinion, and you may very well have a point. Whether people want to hear it is something else though while still striving for equality, even if not perpetuating the stereotype might actually help that cause. Then again, I may not have right to speak on this according to many people being as I'm straight.

I believe you have a point, that people don't want to see or hear criticisms about their community when striving for equality, but that just seems like sticking ones head in the sand. Everyone loves groupthink, but doesn't like to even think about criticizing the communities status quo.

Also, please give your opinion on things like this. As a gay guy, I personally don't care that much.

 

[dawny0826]

A while back, I made a thread on my issues with the LGBT community and the consequential apathy in which I was feeling towards it. About a week ago, an incident occurred where I was basically accused of being a "self-hating gay" and added more fuel to my apathy fire.

About a week ago, I was in a rather anxious/depressive mood, so I decided to watch some YouTube videos to try and get myself out of my slump. I don't know how, as I wasn't watching any videos of this sort, but the following video came up as a "recommended viewing". My curiosity got the better of me and I gave it a click.

Spoiler: It's not quite NSFW, but just in case

[youtube]6qwpK3BN0PE[/youtube]
Kevin Mikal - Candy Yum Yum Music Video - YouTube

Given the mood I was in, and that people on Facebook make political and social posts all the time, I gave my opinion on the video. Censoring myself as I used rather strong language in my original post, I basically said that such "entertainment" in the LGBT community is drivel and only reinforces the stereotype that to be gay is to be a "glitter-farting, fairy ***". Keep in mind that I did not call anyone that, but said that such videos reinforce the stereotype. After a while I deleted the post, as I thought it was too antagonistic, and made a follow up post about how I did not mean to offend anyone and that there is nothing inherently wrong with being naturally femme or liking things like glitter or pink. Once again clarifying that, when what the video depicted what the great majority of gay entertainment shows, it does a great disservice to the diversity of LGBT. That it, basically, would be like a music video depicting Jewish stereotypes or black face. Would people simply have to "get over" those; as it is meant for entertainment? Or would people justifiably be annoyed (or even offended).

Well, eventually an internet ex-friend of mine saw my post, said that I was exactly like the bullies who used to call him "******" and shoved him in his locker, deleted me as a friend, and made two passive aggressive posts about me. One of which accused me of being an internalized homophobe (complete with that stupid #byefelicia) and another which said that it was people like me who shame others for liking pink, glitter, and are femme. That it basically didn't matter if such videos depicted "the gay version of blackface".

We eventually did message each other about the incident, cleared up a few things, and he deleted the two posts. However, I really have no interest in adding him back as a friend, and given that he hasn't done it either, Im guessing he has no interest as well. Which brings me to my question:

Why does simply having a strong opinion (even if it's negative) against the status quo of what it means to be gay bring on accusations of being an "internalized homophobe"?

Also, just FYI, I'm one to take responsibility for what I did, and fully admit that the original post I made should have been worded better. That I may have overreacted to the music video in the first place.

You're entitled to your opinion which I respect.

I have a hard time taking a video like this, seriously (from a content perspective) and had to laugh when I saw Willam Beli. EVERYTHING he does is over the top and that's the point of drag.

It's not supposed to be taken too seriously is it? Not of the candy "yum yum" variety, anyway.

In my opinion, it doesn't necessarily project negative stereotypes. For what it's worth, when I watch people like this, I marvel at their confidence and ability to be true to their creativity, even if it's over the top.

 

[StarryNightshade]

But, yet, there are gay men who act just like this..."glittery". Why not?

I don't know.

Maybe it's their natural disposition?

Maybe it's all one big act?

Maybe it's for the attention?

Maybe it's their way of sticking it to social norms?

Maybe I'm the one getting bent out if shape and overreacting?

 

[dawny0826]

I don't know.

Maybe it's their natural disposition?

Maybe it's all one big act?

Maybe it's for the attention?

Maybe it's their way of sticking it to social norms?

Maybe I'm the one getting bent out if shape and overreacting?

You reiterate a good point that should be considered. Willam Beli's depiction of "gay" isn't what "gay" looks like in blanket label terms. And It's true that that this glittery type of personna is less embraced by some groups and can aid stereotypes.

Father Heathen and I were talking about that yesterday. We talking about voice. In reality, we've known few gay men who fit the stereotypical "glitter queen" stereotype. There's nothing wrong with fitting such stereotype and there isn't anything negative about it.

It's important for you to express concerns.

Men are being sexually objectified in this video and that, in my opinion, isn't a good thing. Sexual objectification is of detriment to everyone. Maybe I'm a bit hypocritical, as I do have a love for drag theatrics. But, then, I don't perceive it as being something that is meant to be taken seriously, save the fact that men in drag typically have a sincere appreciation for women.

I know I'm not helpful, but, I commend you for speaking your mind. I think it's important to talk about this.

For what it's worth, I didn't watch the video and think...wow, that's gay. My eyes went straight to Willam, thinking gee...I love that wig.

 

[Drolefille]

I agree that it's definitely different if someone outside of the culture is the one who does it, but to me, it's kinda worse when someone from within the culture is the one doing something like this. It's almost like they know better, but still do it, because they know it will garner mass appeal and views. There's no integrity involved. Just a way to make a quick buck and cheap laugh.

It's a mix, I mean there's agency involved, they're making a choice. And is your criticism any different than that towards any pop culture thing? I mean lots of musicians are in it for the money, not the art.

However, even though many people will get the "joke" and understand that this is not what all gay people do, there are just as many who see stuff like this and assume that it is what means to be a gay man. Besides, and this is a personal issue of mine coming out right now, should we be really promoting a culture that highly values materialism, vapidness, over-sexualized everything, and internal discrimination (like any gay male who doesn't fit the twink or Adonis body types)?

I think that's a discussion that should be had, but probably not the way you had it. Saying "I don't like that this facet of gay culture is treated like the end-all-be-all" vs. what you actually said are kind of two different things.

However, again, just like there are some people who are challenging the notion that it is expected for women to wear make-up, couldn't something like this also be challenged. To show that, while it's fine to wear pink, like glitter, be a very sexual person etc., that it shouldn't be an expectation. All simply because you are a member of the particular sub-culture?

But does that mean that I should complain about makeup videos like "This B**** is everything that's wrong with womanhood." or "I just can't get into this stuff."
It's youtube, and music and videos and there really is something for everyone. Saying "I'm more into watching episodes of the Guild" or whatever makes more sense to me than going out of my way to rip on it.

Because what you said wasn't "it's ok to be like this even though it isn't everything." You basically said "It's not ok to be like this." I think that is somewhere on the lines of homophobic (As an aside I have a theory about a lot of homophobia being rooted in misogyny). Does it make you a "self hating gay?" Not really. It just means you've probably internalized some stuff that outside culture says. Everyone does that, from children through adults.

Btw, I acknowledge I'm not a gay guy so I'm coming at this from the outside myself, but I'm trying to compare it to similar things with women or with the bisexual or poly community.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some people are too sensitive. The surface value of the content shouldn't be judged, but how it's being used. Gay or straight, there is a difference between taking a playful, even sarcastic, jab and being intentionally mean and hurtful. The transcommunity recently was feuding over Rue Paul using the word "tranny." Personally, I have more important things in life to worry about than what someone on TV said that has no bearing on my life.
There is also taking the power back/away from the so-called "bad things." Rammstein (a German band) goose steps on stage, gay's call each other queer, women call each other a *****, black people call each other ******; it's harder to insult someone when you have taken the power to insult away from them.
The only thing I have a problem with is when people who use such terms and words get offended when others do. If you play with fire, you will get burnt.

 

[StarryNightshade]

It's a mix, I mean there's agency involved, they're making a choice. And is your criticism any different than that towards any pop culture thing? I mean lots of musicians are in it for the money, not the art.

I suppose on a deeper level it's not.

I think that's a discussion that should be had, but probably not the way you had it. Saying "I don't like that this facet of gay culture is treated like the end-all-be-all" vs. what you actually said are kind of two different things.

Like I had mentioned in my OP, one of my mistakes that I made was that I didn't word my thoughts properly. I most certainly meant the former, but it apparently came across like the latter.

But does that mean that I should complain about makeup videos like "This B**** is everything that's wrong with womanhood." or "I just can't get into this stuff."
It's youtube, and music and videos and there really is something for everyone. Saying "I'm more into watching episodes of the Guild" or whatever makes more sense to me than going out of my way to rip on it.

Except I'm not saying that it's "everything wrong with gay culture". Only that, if this kind of entertainment is all that people see/know/is popular, it further perpetuates the flaming gay stereotype.

Because what you said wasn't "it's ok to be like this even though it isn't everything." You basically said "It's not ok to be like this." I think that is somewhere on the lines of homophobic (As an aside I have a theory about a lot of homophobia being rooted in misogyny). Does it make you a "self hating gay?" Not really. It just means you've probably internalized some stuff that outside culture says. Everyone does that, from children through adults.

Once again, it all goes back to not wording my very original post "correctly" (for lack of a better word). I made a mistake and faced the consequences therein. And, once again, I did not say that "it's not okay to be like this". Or, at the very least, that was not the intention.

Btw, I acknowledge I'm not a gay guy so I'm coming at this from the outside myself, but I'm trying to compare it to similar things with women or with the bisexual or poly community.

I do think that there are similarities, but also many differences. And, although I greatly appreciate your input and thoughts, it might be different if you were coming from a gay man's perspective.

 

[Drolefille]

Like I had mentioned in my OP, one of my mistakes that I made was that I didn't word my thoughts properly. I most certainly meant the former, but it apparently came across like the latter.

I know, I think that was the problem more than anything, and you acknowledged that.

Except I'm not saying that it's "everything wrong with gay culture". Only that, if this kind of entertainment is all that people see/know/is popular, it further perpetuates the flaming gay stereotype.

But where do you lay the blame for that, on the "flaming" gay people? The non-flaming gay people for not doing more stuff themselves? Or the people making the assumptions? I think that may be the heart of the matter. I have a feeling from your initial comment plus your posts here you kind of blame it on the first group. Am I wrong?

Once again, it all goes back to not wording my very original post "correctly" (for lack of a better word). I made a mistake and faced the consequences therein. And, once again, I did not say that "it's not okay to be like this". Or, at the very least, that was not the intention.

Yes, and I'm not trying to harp on you for it. I know it wasn't what you meant.

I do think that there are similarities, but also many differences. And, although I greatly appreciate your input and thoughts, it might be different if you were coming from a gay man's perspective.

Probably would be. But if you only want a gay guy to respond I think you're in the wrong forum

 

[StarryNightshade]

But where do you lay the blame for that, on the "flaming" gay people? The non-flaming gay people for not doing more stuff themselves? Or the people making the assumptions? I think that may be the heart of the matter. I have a feeling from your initial comment plus your posts here you kind of blame it on the first group. Am I wrong?

I'm really not trying to put blame on anyone.

But since you mentioned it, how about all 3 aforementioned? Maybe no one is totally innocent? Or, perhaps there needs to be no blame, because no one is really guilty of anything other than conflicting interests and perspectives?

 

[Drolefille]

I'm really not trying to put blame on anyone.

But since you mentioned it, how about all 3 aforementioned? Maybe no one is totally innocent? Or, perhaps there needs to be no blame, because no one is really guilty of anything other than conflicting interests and perspectives?

I'd lean towards the latter, or to those who make prejudicial assumptions.

I know there are tons of gay artists out there. I'd argue for supporting those that you think represent your culture well rather than tearing down the others. Like supporting Pink without ripping on Taylor Swift or something.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'd lean towards the latter, or to those who make prejudicial assumptions.

I know there are tons of gay artists out there. I'd argue for supporting those that you think represent your culture well rather than tearing down the others. Like supporting Pink without ripping on Taylor Swift or something.

Very true. Why focus on ripping on lame stereotyped stuff when you can rock out to Queen and Judas Priest? Complain about a novel about glitter farting faeries, or read a Chuck Palahniuk novel?

 

[StarryNightshade]

I'd lean towards the latter, or to those who make prejudicial assumptions.

I know there are tons of gay artists out there. I'd argue for supporting those that you think represent your culture well rather than tearing down the others. Like supporting Pink without ripping on Taylor Swift or something.

Very true. Why focus on ripping on lame stereotyped stuff when you can rock out to Queen and Judas Priest? Complain about a novel about glitter farting faeries, or read a Chuck Palahniuk novel?

Fair enough. To both of your points.

Still, I do think that this kind of thing should be talked about more in the LGBT community. Just maybe with less antagonism and hypersensitivity (referring to both me and my former FB friend).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Fair enough. To both of your points.

Still, I do think that this kind of thing should be talked about more in the LGBT community. Just maybe with less antagonism and hypersensitivity (referring to both me and my former FB friend).

That is a good point, but unfortunately the LBGT community has alot hypersensitivity and just too much antagonism towards each other to have these discussions. And we should also emphasis what is not stereotypical. The punk rock band Against Me! has a transwoman singer who came out of the closet and began her transition not that long ago, and though it fits in with punk very well punk rock it is not the "norm" for lamestream media and transgender women. The video you posted may be another run of the mill Ru Paul sort of drag stereotype, why promote it? Laura Jane Grace does not fit this stereotype, so why not expose her to the world rather than the ones who unfairly define the norm?

 

[The Hammer]

Other then just being overall bad music, I don't really see anything wrong with this video. He's gay, he's femme. Cool, do what you do.

Not my thing, but why should I judge others for what they like? It's just another part of the LGBT community, stereotype or not.