Interpretation... Or God's View

[nPeace]

I have often heard it said, when it comes to the Bible, "it's just a matter of interpretation." Is that true though?
I would say, there are some things in the Bible, we cannot be dogmatic about, and just have to leave alone, where arguments are concerned,
However, for the vast majority of scripture, is clear enough that one can get God's view, rather than the idea of interpretation.
In this case, one is really applying the truth as explained by the words of Joseph. “Do not interpretations belong to God? Genesis 40:8
Yes. To me, interpretation belongs to God, when it come to his sayings. In other words, he reveals the truth. How does he do that? In two way, according to scripture.
One is through his written word.

For example, Suppose we asked a question...
We may get a variety of opinions, each claiming that their interpretation is just as valid as another person's interpretation.
I believe by doing this, they leave God out. They do not value his interpretation.
I believe that God's word provides the correct interpretation, so I let the word interpret the scripture I am considering, and adjust my understanding to fit God's interpretation. This is the stance of JWs.

So let's ask a question - "How does God view Religious People and other People of the Nations?"
The Bibles says God chooses those whom will represent him... through whom he would reach others.
Going way back (1513 - 1473 B.C.E... *
Moses and Aaron ... and Joshua

Spoiler: Those Jehovah Chose

Exodus 4:14-16)
Jehovah said to Moses, “What about your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that he can speak very well. So you must speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with you and him as you speak, and I will teach you men what to do. He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him.

(Joshua 1:1-9) After the death of Moses the servant of Jehovah, Jehovah said to Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses: “Moses my servant is dead. Now get up... I will give you every place on which you set your foot, just as I promised Moses. No one will be able to take a stand against you as long as you live. Just as I was with Moses, so I will be with you.

(Joshua 6:27) Jehovah was with Joshua, and his fame spread through all the earth.

Some listened to God's representatives. Some refused to listen.

Spoiler: Pharaoh refused to listen

(Exodus 4:21-23; Exodus 5:1, 2) Afterward, Moses and Aaron went in and said to Pharaoh: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel says, ‘Send my people away so that they may celebrate a festival to me in the wilderness.’” But Pharaoh said: “Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all, and what is more, I will not send Israel away.”

... as well as some others.

However, the people of Israel did listen... at least initially.
(Exodus 4:30, 31) Aaron told them all the words that Jehovah had spoken to Moses, and he performed the signs before the eyes of the people. At this the people believed. When they heard that Jehovah had turned his attention to the Israelites and that he had seen their affliction, they bowed down and prostrated themselves.

Those who acknowledged and listened to God's representatives benefited.
The Gibeonites (Joshua 9:8-11)
Rahab - a harlot, with her entire family. (Joshua 2:1-13)
Rahab demonstrated that she knew whom God's representatives were.

Spoiler: Rahab's words

But the woman took the two men and hid them.
Before the men lay down to sleep, she came up to them on the roof. She said to the men: “I do know that Jehovah will give you the land and that the fear of you has fallen upon us. All the inhabitants of the land are disheartened because of you, for we heard how Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red Sea before you when you left Egypt and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites, Siʹhon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction on the other side of the Jordan. When we heard about it, we lost heart, and no one has any courage because of you, for Jehovah your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. Now, please, swear to me by Jehovah that, because I showed loyal love to you, you will also show loyal love to my father’s household; and you must give me a sign of good faith. You must spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and you must save us from death.”

There were no benefits to those who did not acknowledge God's representatives, They were cursed, rejected, and destroyed.

Spoiler: They all had God's disapproval and perished

(Exodus 14:26-31)
The Egyptians fled, but Jehovah shook the Egyptians off into the midst of the sea.
But the Israelites walked on dry ground in the midst of the seabed, and the waters formed a wall on their right hand and on their left. Thus Jehovah saved Israel on that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. Israel also saw the great power that Jehovah wielded against the Egyptians, and the people began to fear Jehovah and to put faith in Jehovah and in his servant Moses.

(Joshua 10:20, 21) After Joshua and the Israelites had finished inflicting a very great slaughter on them, to the point of wiping them out except for some survivors who escaped and entered into the fortified cities, all the people returned safely to Joshua at the camp at Makkedah. Not a man dared to utter a word against the Israelites.

Noteworthy, is the fact that those who did not acknowledge God's representative, and listen to them, came to that realization, but it was too late for them.

The era that followed, is especially important because, this is the Cristian congregation, made up of Jesus followers, of whom he made this promise to, before leaving the earth... "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 28:19, 20)
Jesus also said, "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)

So this is vitally important.
First Century Christian Era - 33 - 70 C.E.
God chose his representatives, and made it plain for all to see. (Acts 2:1-13, 43-47)

The Christian congregation was his means of reaching people in all the world. Notice...
(Acts 8:26-40)
However, Jehovah’s angel spoke to Philip, saying: “Get up and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Gaza.”
With that he got up and went, and look! an Ethiopian eunuch, a man who had authority under Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, and who was in charge of all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and was sitting in his chariot, reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. So the spirit said to Philip: “Go over and approach this chariot.” Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” So he urged Philip to get on and sit down with him.
Now as they were going along the road, they came to a body of water, and the eunuch said: “Look! Here is water; what prevents me from getting baptized?” With that he commanded the chariot to halt, and both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 10
Now there was a man in Caesarea named Cornelius, an army officer in what was called the Italian unit. He was a devout man who feared God together with all his household, and he made many gifts of mercy to the people and made supplication to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day, he saw plainly in a vision an angel of God come in to him and say: “Cornelius! ... Your prayers and gifts of mercy have ascended as a remembrance before God. So now send men to Joppa and summon a man named Simon who is called Peter. This man is staying as a guest with Simon, a tanner who has a house by the sea.” As soon as the angel who spoke to him left, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those who were his attendants, and he related everything to them and sent them to Joppa.

*For brevity, I compressed the texts.

When we consider these scriptures, what is the Bible's answer - not our interpretation.
God chooses his representatives, and uses them to reach others.
God directs, even people who believe in him, or have a spiritual inclination, to those representatives, or he sends his representative to those persons.. as we saw in the case of Cornelius, and the Ethiopian.
We notice that even though Cornelius and the Eunuch were both god fearing, they still were directed to the Christian congregation, where they were helped to understand things clearly, and do things in line with God's arrangement. They did not hesitate to act, just as Paul did, when blinded on the road.
We also have the example with the prophets and Jesus, and his apostles.

So God's view then, according to the Bible (Thanks @Tambourine) , is that he has a people, whom he chose, and uses to help others gain blessing and salvation. Those who do not accept those representatives, lose out on those blessings.
Anyone can be saved, by submitting to the way God chooses to do things. to do otherwise, results in no blessings at all.

Do you disagree?
Please say why, let's discuss it together.
Please let me know if the font is easy to read, or if I you would prefer change.

 

[Tambourine]

Are you God?

 

[nPeace]

Are you God?

That's an interesting way to start a discussion.
I suppose there must be depth of meaning to the question though.
So to answer, one does not need to be God, in order to know what God communicates to us.

Do you believe that to be the case... Why?
Do you believe God lives... Why?
You don't think we have to be God, in order to know if he lives, do you?

 

[nPeace]

@Tambourine I edited my post, thanks to you.

 

[Eyes to See]

(The font is easy to read).

Jesus said this about salvation:

"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews."-John 4:22.

God chose the Jewish nation to produce the coming offspring of the woman foretold in Genesis 3:15, he made the promise to Abraham that by means of his offspring all the nations of the earth would be blessed. So salvation of all humanity came from the Jewish nation. And not only that, the Jewish race was the one God entrusted with transmitting Holy Scripture:

"First of all, that they were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God."-Romans 3:2.

So God's inspired word the Bible was penned by descendants of Jacob.

Some such as the Samaritans, of which Jesus was speaking to one there at John 4, (the Samaritan woman by the well) only accepted God's inspired words in the first 5 books of the Holy Scriptures, and these only in their own recension, called the Samaritan Pentateuch. They, like many today, rejected most of God's inspired word. They really did not understand God, his word, or have salvation.

What about today? God has not used any other nation to inspire Holy Scripture. But when the Jewish nation rejected his son and put the Christ to death he rejected them as a nation, and the spiritual nation of Israel was born.

Initially spiritual Israel consisted of Jews and Jewish proselytes who converted to Christianity and were baptized with holy spirit. The Christian Greek scriptures were all penned by Jews, both by descendance of Abraham, and later on after Jesus died, by the baptism of holy spirit, as anointed Christian witnesses.

In 36 C. E. after the last of the 70 weeks of years of Daniel's prophecy (in chapter 9) were fulfilled uncircumcised gentiles of the nations were also brought into the new covenant and became part of the Israel of God, spiritual Israel, starting with the Roman centurion Cornelius.

That God was going to form a new covenant and bring in people of the nations was foretold in the Hebrew scriptures. For example Jehovah said:

"“Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant.  It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.” “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”-Jeremiah 31:32, 33.


Jehovah forseeing the outcome of the covenant he made with Israel at Mount Sinai and how the Jewish race would eventually reject the Messiah and his son that he was to send foretold through Moses the prophet:

"They have incited me to fury with what is not a god;
They have offended me with their worthless idols.
So I will incite them to jealousy with what is not a people;
I will offend them with a foolish nation."-Deuteronomy 32:21.

In another place in the scripture, the prophet Isaiah was also inspired to write this:

"I have let myself be searched for by those who did not ask for me;
I have let myself be found by those who did not look for me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am!’ to a nation that was not calling on my name."
-Isaiah 65:1.

Who is this "foolish nation" this "nation that was not calling on my name?"

It was those, both of the Jews, and majorly of the Gentiles, or people of the nations, who were brought into the new covenant that God made with the Christian congregation.

Because the Jewish nation as a whole rejected God and his son, God opened the way for a people that were not a people to be called on by his name.

So an anointed Christian is part of the "spiritual Israel of God." They are descendants of Abraham, by faith. For Abraham is the Father of all those who have faith. And it is even as scripture says:

"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.”  Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.”  That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring."-Romans 9:6-8.

Of course today not all Christians are called to heavenly life. But those who do undergo water baptism to Jehovah God, and then are brought into the new covenant by means of being baptized by holy spirit are the spiritual Israel of God, the children of God by the promise.

And it is only by means of God's channel on earth today, through these spiritual Israelites, that one can approach God and serve him acceptably.

One cannot even learn the truth unless it is through God's channel of providing truth and life.

So it has always been the Jewish race that God has used to provide the channel and understanding of salvation. In the past the literal nation of Israel, and afterward, and at present the anointed Christian congregation of God, spiritual Israel, and only Jehovah's Witnesses today have anointed Christians among its members.

 

[nPeace]

(The font is easy to read).

Jesus said this about salvation:

"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews."-John 4:22.

God chose the Jewish nation to produce the coming offspring of the woman foretold in Genesis 3:15, he made the promise to Abraham that by means of his offspring all the nations of the earth would be blessed. So salvation of all humanity came from the Jewish nation. And not only that, the Jewish race was the one God entrusted with transmitting Holy Scripture:

"First of all, that they were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God."-Romans 3:2.

So God's inspired word the Bible was penned by descendants of Jacob.

Some such as the Samaritans, of which Jesus was speaking to one there at John 4, (the Samaritan woman by the well) only accepted God's inspired words in the first 5 books of the Holy Scriptures, and these only in their own recension, called the Samaritan Pentateuch. They, like many today, rejected most of God's inspired word. They really did not understand God, his word, or have salvation.

What about today? God has not used any other nation to inspire Holy Scripture. But when the Jewish nation rejected his son and put the Christ to death he rejected them as a nation, and the spiritual nation of Israel was born.

Initially spiritual Israel consisted of Jews and Jewish proselytes who converted to Christianity and were baptized with holy spirit. The Christian Greek scriptures were all penned by Jews, both by descendance of Abraham, and later on after Jesus died, by the baptism of holy spirit, as anointed Christian witnesses.

In 36 C. E. after the last of the 70 weeks of years of Daniel's prophecy (in chapter 9) were fulfilled uncircumcised gentiles of the nations were also brought into the new covenant and became part of the Israel of God, spiritual Israel, starting with the Roman centurion Cornelius.

That God was going to form a new covenant and bring in people of the nations was foretold in the Hebrew scriptures. For example Jehovah said:

"“Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant.  It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.” “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”-Jeremiah 31:32, 33.


Jehovah forseeing the outcome of the covenant he made with Israel at Mount Sinai and how the Jewish race would eventually reject the Messiah and his son that he was to send foretold through Moses the prophet:

"They have incited me to fury with what is not a god;
They have offended me with their worthless idols.
So I will incite them to jealousy with what is not a people;
I will offend them with a foolish nation."-Deuteronomy 32:21.

In another place in the scripture, the prophet Isaiah was also inspired to write this:

"I have let myself be searched for by those who did not ask for me;
I have let myself be found by those who did not look for me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am!’ to a nation that was not calling on my name."
-Isaiah 65:1.

Who is this "foolish nation" this "nation that was not calling on my name?"

It was those, both of the Jews, and majorly of the Gentiles, or people of the nations, who were brought into the new covenant that God made with the Christian congregation.

Because the Jewish nation as a whole rejected God and his son, God opened the way for a people that were not a people to be called on by his name.

So an anointed Christian is part of the "spiritual Israel of God." They are descendants of Abraham, by faith. For Abraham is the Father of all those who have faith. And it is even as scripture says:

"However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.”  Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.”  That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring."-Romans 9:6-8.

Of course today not all Christians are called to heavenly life. But those who do undergo water baptism to Jehovah God, and then are brought into the new covenant by means of being baptized by holy spirit are the spiritual Israel of God, the children of God by the promise.

And it is only by means of God's channel on earth today, through these spiritual Israelites, that one can approach God and serve him acceptably.

One cannot even learn the truth unless it is through God's channel of providing truth and life.

So it has always been the Jewish race that God has used to provide the channel and understanding of salvation. In the past the literal nation of Israel, and afterward, and at present the anointed Christian congregation of God, spiritual Israel, and only Jehovah's Witnesses today have anointed Christians among its members.

I like how you connected those texts, starting from God's first choosing in relation to his promise to the one man Abraham.

What I find interesting about that, is that God did the choosing, as to whom the nation he would bless, would come through. Although there were other righteous men on earth, God chose Abraham, and thoroughly tested him, so that he could say, this is truly a man of faith - my friend... and he stuck to his promise to the end, making sure that the promised offspring would be from that line.
Nice.

Thanks for the input on the font too.

 

[Eyes to See]

I like how you connected those texts, starting from God's first choosing in relation to his promise to the one man Abraham.

What I find interesting about that, is that God did the choosing, as to whom the nation he would bless, would come through. Although there were other righteous men on earth, God chose Abraham, and thoroughly tested him, so that he could say, this is truly a man of faith - my friend... and he stuck to his promise to the end, making sure that the promised offspring would be from that line.
Nice.

Thanks for the input on the font too.

And to add to that, the same is of the calling and chosing to heavenly life. Just as God decided to chose Abraham. He is the one who decides whom to call to heaven:

For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I will show compassion.”  So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy."-Romans 9:15, 16.

Thusly an anointed member is humbled and put in his place if he thinks that it is something he has done to be brought into such a relationship with God beyond their exercising faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice:

"By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting."-Ephesians 2:8, 9.

What is even more amazing is that by this faith they are called children of Abraham, but even this faith is a gift from God!

"I tell everyone there among you not to think more of himself than it is necessary to think, but to think so as to have a sound mind, each one as God has given to him a measure of faith."-Romans 12:3.

The only way one can come to know Jehovah is by means of his spirit. And only his people carry that spirit. And as they reach out to people the people respond to the spirit by either accepting it or rejecting it. Jesus said if they do not accept the peace you carry let it return to you. But if they do accept the peace then let it remain on the house.

That peace is God's holy spirit. It opens a person's mind to see the glorious light that his servants bring, like shining faces unveiled revealing Jehovah's light.

That is why Jesus told Peter that he was happy because it was God who revealed to him who the Christ was. It is the same with all Jehovah's servants. His anointed spiritual Israel preaches the truths about Jehovah God and his will, and the good news of God's kingdom. Those who listen to that message and that Jehovah decides to open their hearts are drawn to the message.

No one can serve Jehovah without having been drawn to him. Jehovah is the one that examines the heart.

 

[nPeace]

And to add to that, the same is of the calling and chosing to heavenly life. Just as God decided to chose Abraham. He is the one who decides whom to call to heaven:

For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I will show compassion.”  So, then, it depends, not on a person’s desire or on his effort, but on God, who has mercy."-Romans 9:15, 16.

Thusly an anointed member is humbled and put in his place if he thinks that it is something he has done to be brought into such a relationship with God beyond their exercising faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice:

"By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting."-Ephesians 2:8, 9.

What is even more amazing is that by this faith they are called children of Abraham, but even this faith is a gift from God!

"I tell everyone there among you not to think more of himself than it is necessary to think, but to think so as to have a sound mind, each one as God has given to him a measure of faith."-Romans 12:3.

The only way one can come to know Jehovah is by means of his spirit. And only his people carry that spirit. And as they reach out to people the people respond to the spirit by either accepting it or rejecting it. Jesus said if they do not accept the peace you carry let it return to you. But if they do accept the peace then let it remain on the house.

That peace is God's holy spirit. It opens a person's mind to see the glorious light that his servants bring, like shining faces unveiled revealing Jehovah's light.

That is why Jesus told Peter that he was happy because it was God who revealed to him who the Christ was. It is the same with all Jehovah's servants. His anointed spiritual Israel preaches the truths about Jehovah God and his will, and the good news of God's kingdom. Those who listen to that message and that Jehovah decides to open their hearts are drawn to the message.

No one can serve Jehovah without having been drawn to him. Jehovah is the one that examines the heart.

You actually brought out the other way God reveals truth, along with his written word.

 

[1213]

...“Do not interpretations belong to God? Genesis 40:8...

Really nice, thank you. I think we should let God explain what He means, and let Bible explain what it means.

 

[Tambourine]

That's an interesting way to start a discussion.
I suppose there must be depth of meaning to the question though.
So to answer, one does not need to be God, in order to know what God communicates to us.

Do you believe that to be the case... Why?
Do you believe God lives... Why?
You don't think we have to be God, in order to know if he lives, do you?

Your argument is based on the human ability to adopt God's point of view, which presupposes a lot of things about both the nature of God and the nature of the human mind, the most crucial that of the human mind being - not only in principle, but in practice - capable of following along that of God.

I am curious how you are dealing with the gap between the presupposition that humans can adopt God's point of view, and the position Christian theology typically tends to take, which tends to place God - as an omniscient, omnipotent and frequently perfect immortal being - as far beyond human ken (see e.g. arguments over the ineffability of God).

Now, despite your edit, this problem still persists in a somewhat second order form - Scripture is a human creation even if it is inspired by God, so even if God may be perfect and omniscient, the person who presumably adopted his view was not, and that is still a conceptual gap that you need to cross somehow.

 

[nPeace]

Your argument is based on the human ability to adopt God's point of view, which presupposes a lot of things about both the nature of God and the nature of the human mind, the most crucial that of the human mind being - not only in principle, but in practice - capable of following along that of God.

For me, I use one principle as a starting point - Every good structure must be built on a foundation.
So in this thread, if you prefer to use presupposition... I prefer to say, on the view, but we both understand each other, I think. On the view that the Bible is indeed God's word. based on what the Bible says... so, so, so.
So it would be the case that the thread is targeted to people who use the Bible.
For others that don't hold the Bible as the truth to God, we would have to talk about that, and I can always set up a thread based on the direction it takes.

I am curious how you are dealing with the gap between the presupposition that humans can adopt God's point of view, and the position Christian theology typically tends to take, which tends to place God - as an omniscient, omnipotent and frequently perfect immortal being - as far beyond human ken (see e.g. arguments over the ineffability of God).

In the Bible God describes himself this way...
(Isaiah 55:8, 9) 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.

Yet he also says this we can come to know him and his ways.
Men have expressed their desire to know God and his ways, and God has not withheld that from them.
Exodus 33:13 - Please, if I have found favor in your eyes, make me know your ways, so that I may know you and continue to find favor in your eyes.
Psalm 25:4 - Make me know your ways, O Jehovah; Teach me your paths.
Psalm 27:11 - Instruct me in your way, O Jehovah, Lead me in the path of uprightness because of my foes.
Psalm 86:11 - Instruct me, O Jehovah, about your way. I will walk in your truth. Unify my heart to fear your name.
Psalm 119:33 - Teach me, O Jehovah, the way of your regulations, And I will follow it to the end.
....

The reason for that, is as the Bible describes, God condescends, due to his humility.
(Psalm 113:5-7) 5 Who is like Jehovah our God, The one who dwells on high? 6 He stoops down to look on heaven and earth, 7 Raising the lowly from the dust. He lifts up the poor from the ash heap

The bible does not describe God any opposite way to humble.
(Psalm 18:35) ... your humility makes me great.
(Psalm 138:6) Though Jehovah is high, he takes note of the humble, But the haughty he knows only from a distance.

Spoiler: more

(Isaiah 57:15) For this is what the High and Lofty One says, Who lives forever and whose name is holy: “I reside in the high and holy place, But also with those crushed and lowly in spirit, To revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of those being crushed.
(Isaiah 66:2) “My own hand has made all these things, And this is how they all came to be,” declares Jehovah. “To this one, then, I will look, To the one humble and broken in spirit who trembles at my word.

Unlike the negative qualities man acquired through his selfishness, God has no negative qualities. All his ways are perfect.
(Deuteronomy 32:4) The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he.

Now, despite your edit, this problem still persists in a somewhat second order form - Scripture is a human creation even if it is inspired by God, so even if God may be perfect and omniscient, the person who presumably adopted his view was not, and that is still a conceptual gap that you need to cross somehow.

Perfection is not a requirement for knowledge, understanding, humility, love, justice, wisdom, patience, kindness, etc.
So God does not have to use perfection to convey truth.
In fact, his word says the opposite.

Spoiler: God chose tyhe weak to bring the "wise" to shame

(1 Corinthians 1:26-31) 26 For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth, 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 so that no one might boast in the sight of God. 30 But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, 31 so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.”

This is the problem the wise and intellectual of this world will have with God. Because he is humble, and looks upon the lowly one - the one who does not exalt himself above others, and think that he is better than others, because he acquires more in a material, or academic way, God exalts, or lifts that one up.
The worldly wise cannot know God. He distances them. Matthew 13:10-16
Because everything to the worldly wise is about self. Their achievements - "What I did. What I have accomplished". They don't acknowledge Jehovah. In fact, they often scoff at spiritual things.
Romans 1:22; Psalms 10:4

That's why I love Jehovah and his ways. He pays attention to the meek, and the crushed... like a tender father caring for his children.
I love that.

 

[LightofTruth]

Really nice, thank you. I think we should let God explain what He means, and let Bible explain what it means.

When we let the Bible explain itself we are letting God teach us. By comparing inspired words with inspired words we allow the Bible to interpret itself.
The easiest way to spot teaching that is not from God is by the use of words and ideas not found in the Bible and therefore neither taught by God.

 

[shunyadragon]

I have often heard it said, when it comes to the Bible, "it's just a matter of interpretation." Is that true though?
I would say, there are some things in the Bible, we cannot be dogmatic about, and just have to leave alone, where arguments are concerned,
However, for the vast majority of scripture, is clear enough that one can get God's view, rather than the idea of interpretation.
In this case, one is really applying the truth as explained by the words of Joseph. “Do not interpretations belong to God? Genesis 40:8
Yes. To me, interpretation belongs to God, when it come to his sayings. In other words, he reveals the truth. How does he do that? In two way, according to scripture.
One is through his written word.

For example, Suppose we asked a question...
We may get a variety of opinions, each claiming that their interpretation is just as valid as another person's interpretation.
I believe by doing this, they leave God out. They do not value his interpretation.
I believe that God's word provides the correct interpretation, so I let the word interpret the scripture I am considering, and adjust my understanding to fit God's interpretation. This is the stance of JWs.

So let's ask a question - "How does God view Religious People and other People of the Nations?"
The Bibles says God chooses those whom will represent him... through whom he would reach others.
Going way back (1513 - 1473 B.C.E... *
Moses and Aaron ... and Joshua

Spoiler: Those Jehovah Chose

Exodus 4:14-16)
Jehovah said to Moses, “What about your brother Aaron the Levite? I know that he can speak very well. So you must speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with you and him as you speak, and I will teach you men what to do. He will speak for you to the people, and he will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him.

(Joshua 1:1-9) After the death of Moses the servant of Jehovah, Jehovah said to Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses: “Moses my servant is dead. Now get up... I will give you every place on which you set your foot, just as I promised Moses. No one will be able to take a stand against you as long as you live. Just as I was with Moses, so I will be with you.

(Joshua 6:27) Jehovah was with Joshua, and his fame spread through all the earth.

Some listened to God's representatives. Some refused to listen.

Spoiler: Pharaoh refused to listen

(Exodus 4:21-23; Exodus 5:1, 2) Afterward, Moses and Aaron went in and said to Pharaoh: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel says, ‘Send my people away so that they may celebrate a festival to me in the wilderness.’” But Pharaoh said: “Who is Jehovah, that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all, and what is more, I will not send Israel away.”

... as well as some others.

However, the people of Israel did listen... at least initially.
(Exodus 4:30, 31) Aaron told them all the words that Jehovah had spoken to Moses, and he performed the signs before the eyes of the people. At this the people believed. When they heard that Jehovah had turned his attention to the Israelites and that he had seen their affliction, they bowed down and prostrated themselves.

Those who acknowledged and listened to God's representatives benefited.
The Gibeonites (Joshua 9:8-11)
Rahab - a harlot, with her entire family. (Joshua 2:1-13)
Rahab demonstrated that she knew whom God's representatives were.

Spoiler: Rahab's words

But the woman took the two men and hid them.
Before the men lay down to sleep, she came up to them on the roof. She said to the men: “I do know that Jehovah will give you the land and that the fear of you has fallen upon us. All the inhabitants of the land are disheartened because of you, for we heard how Jehovah dried up the waters of the Red Sea before you when you left Egypt and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites, Siʹhon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction on the other side of the Jordan. When we heard about it, we lost heart, and no one has any courage because of you, for Jehovah your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath. Now, please, swear to me by Jehovah that, because I showed loyal love to you, you will also show loyal love to my father’s household; and you must give me a sign of good faith. You must spare the lives of my father and mother, my brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them, and you must save us from death.”

There were no benefits to those who did not acknowledge God's representatives, They were cursed, rejected, and destroyed.

Spoiler: They all had God's disapproval and perished

(Exodus 14:26-31)
The Egyptians fled, but Jehovah shook the Egyptians off into the midst of the sea.
But the Israelites walked on dry ground in the midst of the seabed, and the waters formed a wall on their right hand and on their left. Thus Jehovah saved Israel on that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. Israel also saw the great power that Jehovah wielded against the Egyptians, and the people began to fear Jehovah and to put faith in Jehovah and in his servant Moses.

(Joshua 10:20, 21) After Joshua and the Israelites had finished inflicting a very great slaughter on them, to the point of wiping them out except for some survivors who escaped and entered into the fortified cities, all the people returned safely to Joshua at the camp at Makkedah. Not a man dared to utter a word against the Israelites.

Noteworthy, is the fact that those who did not acknowledge God's representative, and listen to them, came to that realization, but it was too late for them.

The era that followed, is especially important because, this is the Cristian congregation, made up of Jesus followers, of whom he made this promise to, before leaving the earth... "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 28:19, 20)
Jesus also said, "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)

So this is vitally important.
First Century Christian Era - 33 - 70 C.E.
God chose his representatives, and made it plain for all to see. (Acts 2:1-13, 43-47)

The Christian congregation was his means of reaching people in all the world. Notice...
(Acts 8:26-40)
However, Jehovah’s angel spoke to Philip, saying: “Get up and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Gaza.”
With that he got up and went, and look! an Ethiopian eunuch, a man who had authority under Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, and who was in charge of all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and was sitting in his chariot, reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. So the spirit said to Philip: “Go over and approach this chariot.” Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” So he urged Philip to get on and sit down with him.
Now as they were going along the road, they came to a body of water, and the eunuch said: “Look! Here is water; what prevents me from getting baptized?” With that he commanded the chariot to halt, and both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 10
Now there was a man in Caesarea named Cornelius, an army officer in what was called the Italian unit. He was a devout man who feared God together with all his household, and he made many gifts of mercy to the people and made supplication to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day, he saw plainly in a vision an angel of God come in to him and say: “Cornelius! ... Your prayers and gifts of mercy have ascended as a remembrance before God. So now send men to Joppa and summon a man named Simon who is called Peter. This man is staying as a guest with Simon, a tanner who has a house by the sea.” As soon as the angel who spoke to him left, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those who were his attendants, and he related everything to them and sent them to Joppa.

*For brevity, I compressed the texts.

When we consider these scriptures, what is the Bible's answer - not our interpretation.
God chooses his representatives, and uses them to reach others.
God directs, even people who believe in him, or have a spiritual inclination, to those representatives, or he sends his representative to those persons.. as we saw in the case of Cornelius, and the Ethiopian.
We notice that even though Cornelius and the Eunuch were both god fearing, they still were directed to the Christian congregation, where they were helped to understand things clearly, and do things in line with God's arrangement. They did not hesitate to act, just as Paul did, when blinded on the road.
We also have the example with the prophets and Jesus, and his apostles.

So God's view then, according to the Bible (Thanks @Tambourine) , is that he has a people, whom he chose, and uses to help others gain blessing and salvation. Those who do not accept those representatives, lose out on those blessings.
Anyone can be saved, by submitting to the way God chooses to do things. to do otherwise, results in no blessings at all.

Do you disagree?
Please say why, let's discuss it together.
Please let me know if the font is easy to read, or if I you would prefer change.

I very much disagree. because you take a more literal interpretation, yes it is an interpretation of OT scripture without provenance nor known authorship. You speak of these references in the OT as factual history. This view is factually untenable considering the factual history of the scriptures, and the archaeological and geologic history of the Middle East.

It is rather egocentric for you to consider one of the many diverse conflicting beliefs that also claim they have God's view. I consider God's view a more universal perspective than any one religion or scripture in history.

 

[74x12]

I believe by doing this, they leave God out. They do not value his interpretation.
I believe that God's word provides the correct interpretation, so I let the word interpret the scripture I am considering, and adjust my understanding to fit God's interpretation. This is the stance of JWs.

When God gave a dream then according to Joseph and Daniel (the two best examples of dream interpreters we find in the Bible) it was also God that gave the interpretation. (Genesis 40:8, Daniel 2:45) Remember that the wisest and most well learned men of Egypt and Babylon could not understand or interpret the dreams that God gave to the Pharaoh or Nebuchadnezzar. So without access to the holy Spirit you can't interpret the dreams given by God and the same is true of scripture given by God. You need the holy Spirit to understand and interpret the scriptures because they're "god-breathed". So they are given by inspiration and you need the holy Spirit to understand them.

Otherwise you'll end up like the scribes and pharisees. To whom Jesus said "Search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life, but they are they that speak about me."

So we can make the same mistake now if we only look to the scriptures; but ignore what they tell us we need to actually understand the things of God.

Because according to the scriptures no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11)

The prophets of old were filled with the breath of God so they could speak the Word of God. Just as you speak your own words with your own breath. The Word of God comes from the breath of God. And so you need the same Spirit as the prophets had to understand their sayings.

And so it is no surprise that before they could begin to do their ministry Jesus told the disciples "tarry at Jerusalem until you be endowed with power from on high" And so they stayed until the "day of Pentecost was fully come" and the Spirit of God fell on each of them and they spoke in other tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. So beginning at Acts 2:38 is the way to understand the scriptures.

 

[nPeace]

I very much disagree. because you take a more literal interpretation, yes it is an interpretation of OT scripture without provenance nor known authorship. You speak of these references in the OT as factual history. This view is factually untenable considering the factual history of the scriptures, and the archaeological and geologic history of the Middle East.

It is rather egocentric for you to consider one of the many diverse conflicting beliefs that also claim they have God's view. I consider God's view a more universal perspective than any one religion or scripture in history.

Okay, so just to be sure I understand you correctly... please verify, because I don't want to misunderstand or misquote you.
You don't think that the Bible is factual, or merits any trust. Therefore, we cannot claim it is God's view.
Have I understood you correctly?

 

[shunyadragon]

Okay, so just to be sure I understand you correctly... please verify, because I don't want to misunderstand or misquote you.
You don't think that the Bible is factual, or merits any trust. Therefore, we cannot claim it is God's view.
Have I understood you correctly?

Specifically the Pentateuch is not factually nor historically factual, also it does not warrant our trust historically, because there is no documented provenance nor authorship. It is the human view of God and Revelation for the time as with all ancient religions. It should be understood in the context of the culture and knowledge of the time and culture it was compiled, edited, and written.

 

[nPeace]

When God gave a dream then according to Joseph and Daniel (the two best examples of dream interpreters we find in the Bible) it was also God that gave the interpretation. (Genesis 40:8, Daniel 2:45) Remember that the wisest and most well learned men of Egypt and Babylon could not understand or interpret the dreams that God gave to the Pharaoh or Nebuchadnezzar. So without access to the holy Spirit you can't interpret the dreams given by God and the same is true of scripture given by God. You need the holy Spirit to understand and interpret the scriptures because they're "god-breathed". So they are given by inspiration and you need the holy Spirit to understand them.

Otherwise you'll end up like the scribes and pharisees. To whom Jesus said "Search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life, but they are they that speak about me."

So we can make the same mistake now if we only look to the scriptures; but ignore what they tell us we need to actually understand the things of God.

Because according to the scriptures no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11)

The prophets of old were filled with the breath of God so they could speak the Word of God. Just as you speak your own words with your own breath. The Word of God comes from the breath of God. And so you need the same Spirit as the prophets had to understand their sayings.

And so it is no surprise that before they could begin to do their ministry Jesus told the disciples "tarry at Jerusalem until you be endowed with power from on high" And so they stayed until the "day of Pentecost was fully come" and the Spirit of God fell on each of them and they spoke in other tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. So beginning at Acts 2:38 is the way to understand the scriptures.

I don't disagree with you on this.
In fact, Jesus' own words show that God guides the understanding of truth-seekers.
(John 14:26) But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.
The holy spirit guides what is based on God;s word.
In other words, one cannot exclude diligent study of God's word. This must be the basis, for the holy spirit's guidance.

What I find interesting about the way holy spirit is used though, from the reading of the accounts, of Cornelius, and the Ethiopian Eunuch, is that Holy Spirit was operating on the body of the Christian congregation, and so sincere individuals, although devout, were led by God, to his organization... As @Eyes to See put it... "the channel God chose to use".

Hence it does highlight the point, that despite there being billions of sincere devout worshippers, throughout the world, God does not use his spirit upon them, to give them understanding, in full measure.
Rather, he guides them to those he uses to bring others to the truth.

It is in line a a scripture famously used by JWs. Matthew 24:45.
Which does make the answer to the question doubly clear - God uses only one united group, which others, are drawn to, if they do like Paul, on the road to Damascus, and not kick against the goad. (1 Corinthians 14:33)

Would you agree?

 

[MNoBody]

I think the scriptures put it like this-
who has known the mind of God?

 

[nPeace]

Specifically the Pentateuch is not factually nor historically factual, also it does not warrant our trust historically, because there is no documented provenance nor authorship. It is the human view of God and Revelation for the time as with all ancient religions. It should be understood in the context of the culture and knowledge of the time and culture it was compiled, edited, and written.

Can you allow me to move this quote over to another thread which I think is more appropriate for this, where we can discuss the matter of authenticity? Since this thread deals with interpretation I was hoping, specifically for those who already use the Bible on the belief that it is God's word, but does not have any one interpretation.
In other words, it would be nice, I think, if we could focus on interpretation, on various scripture, rather than I having to be sidetracked with proving the Bible merits our trust.
Would that be okay with you?

 

[nPeace]

I think the scriptures put it like this-
who has known the mind of God?

Yes. Romans 11:34.
As well as... 1 Corinthians 2:16 - For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.

(Matthew 11:27) All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.

That's a great admission to listen to God's representatives - Jesus, and those who follow him, for they have come to know the Father - even fully.

Thanks for that.