Iranian Woman Beats Up Cleric

[Badran]

I totally understand the dynamics, and how annoyed she must feel by the whole situation, but I still don't think violence is the answer, and I don't believe anger and outrage excuses violence, even when the oppression is severe.

I totally agree. I think i'm just giving more room for her being on the defensive rather than on the offensive. As in, i don't think she's necessarily, generally a believer in violence. Or someone whose constantly violent. I basically don't agree that she's a thug.

At the moment there are a dozen threads condemning violent protests in the Muslim world, and now this. Just seems kind of hypocritical to me. Throw a few rocks at Australian police and it's the end of the world. Put a Muslim man in the hospital and everybody claps and cheers.

I completely understand the consistency you're seeking and admire it. I only think that there a couple of differences worth noting.

 

[MissAlice]

I don't think there's justification for hitting people but on the other hand I can't blame her for being angry. Islam or not, I'd be very offended to not only live but be discriminated for being the gender I was. When I read this, I take it personally not because I hate Muslims but because I don't like discrimination. I can't read the minds of people but given Iran's behavior toward the modesty police (there seems to be a growing number of articles of Iranians lashing out at the police), I don't blame her for being angry to an extent that her life is already affected in everyday life. She may not live in Afghanistan but she still lives in oppression and it seems to me to this issue of dress code for women all too much proves the debate over modesty and women in general since this isn't just an Islam issue but one that is still debated even in the US. Difference is we don't arrest women for what they wear or for lack of. Iran is just one of many extreme examples of it this enforcing via religion.

I will express my sentiments again, I don't believe hitting the man was right but I don't believe a society has the right to dictate how a woman should dress (compared to a man), behave (compared to a man), and work or not (compared to a man). I apologize if my words come off offensive to others but being a female myself, I take it personally because I've been harassed even in a society that considers women equals.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If her safety wouldn't be an issue, as I imagine things will probably get very ugly for that girl, or any girl that ends up getting accused of it, this would be awesome. But maybe it will inspire a feminist movement and women their will no longer be subjected to such oppression.

I totally understand the dynamics, and how annoyed she must feel by the whole situation, but I still don't think violence is the answer, and I don't believe anger and outrage excuses violence, even when the oppression is severe. At the moment there are a dozen threads condemning violent protests in the Muslim world, and now this. Just seems kind of hypocritical to me. Throw a few rocks at Australian police and it's the end of the world. Put a Muslim man in the hospital and everybody claps and cheers.

For her though it is likely something she experiences on a regular and frequent basis. Violence isn't the answer, but I certainly would not hold her responsible.

 

[Caladan]

If I was a woman who was subject to covering herself, I would eventually beat the carp out of someone. Idealy a cleric.

 

[Wirey]

If I was a woman who was subject to covering herself, I would eventually beat the carp out of someone. Idealy a cleric.

Yes, but if you were a woman we'd be covering our eyes when you were around, anyway, so it would average out.

 

[Caladan]

Yes, but if you were a woman we'd be covering our eyes when you were around, anyway, so it would average out.

Hey, don't be so sure!

 

[Alceste]

The common thread here seems to me that people appreciate freedom and dislike when people try to take it away, whether by telling (admittedly buffoonish) filmmakers that they can't say bad things about Muhammad, or a woman on the street that she can't dress how she wants.

Then why pretend that the violence had anything to do with our disapproval of the protests that are currently happening? That's another common thread. Do we disapprove of the message, or of the method of communication? If it's the message, why the charade of pretending we disapprove of violence?

 

[Alceste]

If her safety wouldn't be an issue, as I imagine things will probably get very ugly for that girl, or any girl that ends up getting accused of it, this would be awesome. But maybe it will inspire a feminist movement and women their will no longer be subjected to such oppression.


For her though it is likely something she experiences on a regular and frequent basis. Violence isn't the answer, but I certainly would not hold her responsible.

Why not hold her responsible? The intolerable oppression of religious police is a mitigating factor, maybe, but enough to give women a free pass for assault?

The Coptic Christian who made that ridiculous hate movie was also assaulted, by the way. Coptic Christian women mobbed him and beat him up with their shoes, accusing him of making life more dangerous for Christians in Egypt. Is that OK too?

I have to confess I am amused by both these stories, but I won't pretend it's my better nature prevailing, and I recognize that the reality of physical assault is probably not as amusing as I might prefer to believe.

 

[Wirey]

Why not hold her responsible? The intolerable oppression of religious police is a mitigating factor, maybe, but enough to give women a free pass for assault?

Maybe this guy has a history of bringing harm to women. Striking him might have been preferable to jail to her. For all we know, he's a real scumbag.

 

[Alceste]

Maybe this guy has a history of bringing harm to women. Striking him might have been preferable to jail to her. For all we know, he's a real scumbag.

Oh it's a given that he's a complete scumbag, I think. Nobody is going to get off lightly if they try to dictate to me what I wear and who I associate with, but the only legitimate use of violence, in my opinion, is to defend yourself against imminent bodily harm. He was not trying to arrest her or have her beaten, according to the article. He was just being an ***. Do you want a woman to put you in the hospital every time you act like an ***?

 

[Storm]

I'm withholding judgement until someone gives a bit more detail about said "warnings." From the very brief article in the OP, it sounds to me like they're trying to whitewash a threat.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I am all for a little bit of violent uprising when it's needed.

After centuries of systematic oppression, i don't think it's unfair to strike back until the oppression is ended. But only until the oppression is ended.

 

[Wirey]

Oh it's a given that he's a complete scumbag, I think. Nobody is going to get off lightly if they try to dictate to me what I wear and who I associate with, but the only legitimate use of violence, in my opinion, is to defend yourself against imminent bodily harm. He was not trying to arrest her or have her beaten, according to the article. He was just being an ***. Do you want a woman to put you in the hospital every time you act like an ***?

I meant maybe he has a history of saying 'Cover your face,' and then the cops show up. And if a woman put me in hospital every time I acted liek an ***, there'd be a picture of me in the emergency room with a sign under it that said "Our Founder".

 

[Storm]

So violence is a legitimate response to free speech now?

Free speech doesn't carry threats of retribution from the government.

This is how uprisings begin.

 

[Storm]

That's simply not true. Women in Iran have rights. They can vote, go to school, drive, live independently, choose who to marry, get divorced if it doesn't work out, etc. It's not equal, but it's not Afghanistan. The religious police mostly enforce dress codes and try to catch unmarried men and women on dates. That's totally retarded, of course, but you overstate the situation.

Seeing as she can vote, I think she had an alternative to putting the guy in a hospital. She's a thug. We wouldn't think it was cute if a man put a woman in the hospital no matter how mouthy she was. I'm trying to be consistent.

Of course I wish women in Iran would get down to the job of improving their situation, but this sort of thing will not help.

I don't think it's "cute." I think it may have been justified. I also think that dismissing a member of the government-enforced religious establishment "warning" her to cover up as "being mouthy" is disingenuous.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Then why pretend that the violence had anything to do with our disapproval of the protests that are currently happening? That's another common thread. Do we disapprove of the message, or of the method of communication? If it's the message, why the charade of pretending we disapprove of violence?

I'm not a pacifist; I don't disapprove of violence across the board. Violence is a means to various ends, and the ends being acheived affect the ethics of using the violence: IMO, violence to oppress is always unacceptable, but violence to resist oppression can be okay under the right circumstances.

 

[Storm]

I'm not a pacifist; I don't disapprove of violence across the board. Violence is a means to various ends, and the ends being acheived affect the ethics of using the violence: IMO, violence to oppress is always unacceptable, but violence to resist oppression can be okay under the right circumstances.

Same here, well said.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's simply not true. Women in Iran have rights. They can vote, go to school, drive, live independently, choose who to marry, get divorced if it doesn't work out, etc. It's not equal, but it's not Afghanistan. The religious police mostly enforce dress codes and try to catch unmarried men and women on dates. That's totally retarded, of course, but you overstate the situation.

Seeing as she can vote, I think she had an alternative to putting the guy in a hospital. She's a thug. We wouldn't think it was cute if a man put a woman in the hospital no matter how mouthy she was. I'm trying to be consistent.

Of course I wish women in Iran would get down to the job of improving their situation, but this sort of thing will not help.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that while Iranians vote for their secular/administrative representatives, they don't vote for their religious government representatives (the Ayatollah, etc.), and the Ayatollah outranks the President.

It could very well be that she wouldn't be able to get rid of religious modesty rules by "getting out the vote."

 

[Alceste]

I'm not a pacifist; I don't disapprove of violence across the board. Violence is a means to various ends, and the ends being acheived affect the ethics of using the violence: IMO, violence to oppress is always unacceptable, but violence to resist oppression can be okay under the right circumstances.

Well, that is consistent. I feel reassured.

I still think there are more intelligent and effective ways to combat oppression than violence, though. Violence tends to have the opposite effect of what we might aim to achieve, usually increasing the violence of the oppressive regime's reaction. And, a regime defeated by violence is usually succeeded by another regime that is no better than the one that was overthrown.

 

[Alceste]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that while Iranians vote for their secular/administrative representatives, they don't vote for their religious government representatives (the Ayatollah, etc.), and the Ayatollah outranks the President.

It could very well be that she wouldn't be able to get rid of religious modesty rules by "getting out the vote."

You'd be surprised what organized women can accomplish in the fact of organized religious oppression. Would you believe my grandmother wasn't legally considered a "person" until ten years after her birth, and her own mother was not even allowed to vote?

Really, Iranian women need to get it together. There's no reason they can't conquer the Ayatollah's supremacy. There are more of them than there are of him.