Irreducible complexity exists - cannot be refuted

[Jayhawker Soule]

He's all yours, jar....I ain't get'n no discussion.

Talking to a brick wall is sometimes cathartic. Expecting a rathional answer is, however, a bit dellusional. I applaud you for walking away ...

 

[Revoltingest]

Talking to a brick wall is sometimes cathartic. Expecting a rathional answer is, however, a bit dellusional. I applaud you for walking away ...

I'm skulking away.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Don't you see how disingenuous and back-to-front this statement is?

Nope.
I'm afraid you are going to have to show me why that is.

You cannot call natural selection a process or a mechanism - it is just the end result of something else.

Process: …a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end…

Mechanism: a natural or established process by which something takes place or is brought about: the immune system’s mechanism for detecting pathogens

Can we now agree that both terms are applicable to what natural selection is? :sarcastic
Or is the problem simply that you do not understand what natural selection is in the first place...

The process is the mutation in the first place which you are saying is random.

You can certainly call mutation a process, but natural selection is the process that works on those mutations.

No, this is not random - the DNA guides the mutations to change in an overall directed manner in response to signals received from the cells/atoms at the front line.

Seeing as the one paper you found, from the 70's no less, that mention anything even remotely similar has now been debunked, by it's own author no less, could you perhaps bring some actual evidence to the table to support your otherwise baseless opinion?

 

[jarofthoughts]

How could they possibly know whether the mutations were targeted or not?

I imagine that because they could not prove this they went for the safe bet - to stick with the Darwinian theory so as not to lose face.

Did you read the whole article? :sarcastic
I'm guessing no since you have to ask that question...

And seriously, if a biologist could somehow debunk ToE, he or she could expect world fame, all the grants they could possibly want, not to mention a Nobel price.
How do you see that as a way to 'lose face'?

 

[atanu]

To drag in Revoltingest against his wish ......

Evolution is not by chance, nor do the changes happen all at once. Great time & population sizes are needed.
While mutations are randomly generated, the fitness function created by reproduction & survival created your guiding mechanism.

Evolution doesn't work that way. It has no objective, ----

Probably you mean "No conscious objective"?

While mutations are randomly generated, the fitness function created by reproduction & survival created your guiding mechanism.

I tend to think that implementation of the fitness function may require a Maxwell's demon?

I will explain: We say that elements follow a half life decay equation. Now how does the element adhere to the equation? How does it know how much of it has changed?

 

[painted wolf]

What does "fully evolved" mean?

Even the most adapted and stable seeming species still evolve via genetic drift. A perfect example is the work I was helping with on Horseshoe crabs, showing that otherwise identical animals that lived in different places were still genetically different from one another. The further apart they were, the more differences between them genetically.

wa:do

 

[meogi]

Probably you mean "No conscious objective"?

He probably means no objective. Akin to a sieve. Life is merely the tendency of matter to oppose the 2nd law of thermodynamics. There is no objective, just a result.

We say that elements follow a half life decay equation. Now how does the element adhere to the equation?

The only reason we say that is because the elements do, in fact, adhere to it. The equation comes from observation, not the other way around.

The 'demon' still follows our observations. Life has to disorder things to generate order.

 

[idea]

... complex designs came about by chance ....

nothing happens by chance of coarse - for anything to move randomly, or by chance, you would have to turn off all the laws of physics - take an apple, for an apple to move by chance, somehow it would have to be immune to following the law of gravity etc. etc.

We live in an orderly, law abiding universe. Nothing happens by chance. Not even chaos theory is by chance (it is high sensitivity to initial conditions) nothing happens randomly, nothing is immune to following the laws of physics.

one of my favorite questions to ask - why doesn't everything evolve? If the new structures we see are from atomic packing defects, radiation, etc. etc. then everything should evolve - iron, copper, granite, salt - all crystalline structures should evolve with time... they don't. atomic structures are created through interaction potentials, and these do not change with time. survival? The rocks do not evolve, and yet they survive... what exactly is trying to survive? and why?

We are more than just matter and energy, rocks have matter and energy. We have a will to survive, we have a will. Our will/mind/intelligence/spirit/conscience - call it what you will - this is what sets us apart from the rocks, and directs our paths. Unlike a rock, we can get up, choose where to live, choose who to mate with, choose what food to eat - we have the ability to choose.... call it "artificial selection" instead of "ID" but it is the same thing. We are endowed with intelligence, intelligence exists within us, and within the universe, and intelligence is capable of designing things. It is a silly thing to deny the existence of intelligence, and to deny the influence that it has.

 

[doppelganger]

We live in an orderly, law abiding universe. Nothing happens by chance. Not even chaos theory is by chance (it is high sensitivity to initial conditions) nothing happens randomly, nothing is immune to following the laws of physics. . . .

. . . Our will/mind/intelligence/spirit/conscience - call it what you will - this is what sets us apart from the rocks, and directs our paths. Unlike a rock, we can get up, choose where to live, choose who to mate with, choose what food to eat - we have the ability to choose....

No comment.

 

[jarofthoughts]

nothing happens by chance of coarse - for anything to move randomly, or by chance, you would have to turn off all the laws of physics - take an apple, for an apple to move by chance, somehow it would have to be immune to following the law of gravity etc. etc.

We live in an orderly, law abiding universe. Nothing happens by chance. Not even chaos theory is by chance (it is high sensitivity to initial conditions) nothing happens randomly, nothing is immune to following the laws of physics.

one of my favorite questions to ask - why doesn't everything evolve? If the new structures we see are from atomic packing defects, radiation, etc. etc. then everything should evolve - iron, copper, granite, salt - all crystalline structures should evolve with time... they don't. atomic structures are created through interaction potentials, and these do not change with time. survival? The rocks do not evolve, and yet they survive... what exactly is trying to survive? and why?

We are more than just matter and energy, rocks have matter and energy. We have a will to survive, we have a will. Our will/mind/intelligence/spirit/conscience - call it what you will - this is what sets us apart from the rocks, and directs our paths. Unlike a rock, we can get up, choose where to live, choose who to mate with, choose what food to eat - we have the ability to choose.... call it "artificial selection" instead of "ID" but it is the same thing. We are endowed with intelligence, intelligence exists within us, and within the universe, and intelligence is capable of designing things. It is a silly thing to deny the existence of intelligence, and to deny the influence that it has.

Honey, you are in dire need of an education...

 

[Revoltingest]

I see things aren't improving.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I see things aren't improving.

Perhaps this thread is irreducibly complex?

 

[camanintx]

We are more than just matter and energy, rocks have matter and energy. We have a will to survive, we have a will. Our will/mind/intelligence/spirit/conscience - call it what you will - this is what sets us apart from the rocks, and directs our paths.

What you call "will/mind/intelligence/spirit/conscience" is nothing more than patterns within the matter and energy which make up our brains. We cannot exist separate from our bodies any more than a painting can exist separate from the pigments it is made from.

 

[McBell]

What does "fully evolved" mean?

It is a Pokemon term that means there is no other form the Pokemon will evolve into.

Other than that, I have no idea.
Sad though, that some people get their "knowledge" of evolution from a video game.

 

[McBell]

No comment.

$20 says Idea completely misses it...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

nothing happens by chance of coarse - for anything to move randomly, or by chance, you would have to turn off all the laws of physics - take an apple, for an apple to move by chance, somehow it would have to be immune to following the law of gravity etc. etc.

We live in an orderly, law abiding universe. Nothing happens by chance. Not even chaos theory is by chance (it is high sensitivity to initial conditions) nothing happens randomly, nothing is immune to following the laws of physics.

one of my favorite questions to ask - why doesn't everything evolve? If the new structures we see are from atomic packing defects, radiation, etc. etc. then everything should evolve - iron, copper, granite, salt - all crystalline structures should evolve with time... they don't. atomic structures are created through interaction potentials, and these do not change with time. survival? The rocks do not evolve, and yet they survive... what exactly is trying to survive? and why?

We are more than just matter and energy, rocks have matter and energy. We have a will to survive, we have a will. Our will/mind/intelligence/spirit/conscience - call it what you will - this is what sets us apart from the rocks, and directs our paths. Unlike a rock, we can get up, choose where to live, choose who to mate with, choose what food to eat - we have the ability to choose.... call it "artificial selection" instead of "ID" but it is the same thing. We are endowed with intelligence, intelligence exists within us, and within the universe, and intelligence is capable of designing things. It is a silly thing to deny the existence of intelligence, and to deny the influence that it has.

Like totally. If you want to make a cake, you need flour, right? I mean, sugar and egg are usually necessary too, but even if the cake is chocolate, you still need to start with flour. It's funny because flowers grow all over the place, but people still buy flour at the store. It's kind of ridiculous when you think about it.

 

[McBell]

Like totally. If you want to make a cake, you need flour, right? I mean, sugar and egg are usually necessary too, but even if the cake is chocolate, you still need to start with flour. It's funny because flowers grow all over the place, but people still buy flour at the store. It's kind of ridiculous when you think about it.

I do not know if it is sad or funny or both that the above quote makes much more sense than the post it is in reply to....

 

[atanu]

He probably means no objective. Akin to a sieve. Life is merely the tendency of matter to oppose the 2nd law of thermodynamics. There is no objective, just a result.
The only reason we say that is because the elements do, in fact, adhere to it. The equation comes from observation, not the other way around.

The 'demon' still follows our observations. Life has to disorder things to generate order.

Thank you Meogi. Whatever little you write is always useful to me. The highlighted bold part especially.

I have another query. What is the evidence that mutations are random?

 

[doppelganger]

I have another query. What is the evidence that mutations are random?

People keep using the words "chance" and "random" in this discussion and I don't think it means what they think it means.

You've killed my father, prepare to die.

 

[nnmartin]

what does it mean then?