Is a Two-State Solution Still Possible?

[Bunyip]

Of where?

Of Arabia of course!

 

[Kirran]

The Israeli Occupation of the West Bank has been ruled to be in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

To expand upon my previous rebuttal of your somewhat surreal statement that Palestinians should 'go home' to Egypt and Jordan, allow me to offer an analogy. This is like saying that after the handover of Hong Kong to China, all Hong Kongers should have left Hong Kong and come to the United Kingdom. This doesn't make sense, because they're from Hong Kong and should have a right to be there, regardless of whether Hong Kong is ultimately under the jurisdiction of the UK, of China or its own independent rule. Same situation applies, these people are from Palestine, regardless of who's ruling Palestine, or which national entity it's a part of.

 

[Kirran]

As for those two videos - 1) the Israeli occupation of the West Bank need not be the only barrier to the peace process, I never said that, and what's more interpretations of international law as to whether or not the occupation if illegal, and whether or not the settlements are legal (and of course thy're settlements, in the same way London is a settlement, or Shanghai is a settlement) are basically neither here nor there, because they're causing suffering to millions of people by being a factor inhibiting the peace process, and that's what I'm against.
2) I never said Israel shouldn't exist.

 

[Kirran]

To clarify, I am against the existence of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. I believe that the explicitly-Jewish nature of the State of Israel is harmful, and it should throw out all ethnic nationalism and mixture of church and state within its governmental system. I don't believe Israel should be a Jewish state, I believe it should be an Israeli state. Before you ask, yes, I also support this throwing-out of ethnic nationalism and mixture of religion and government in Jordan, in Lebanon, in Egypt, in Saudi Arabia, in the Palestinian parties (yeah Fatah!).

 

[CMike]

The Israeli Occupation of the West Bank has been ruled to be in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

To expand upon my previous rebuttal of your somewhat surreal statement that Palestinians should 'go home' to Egypt and Jordan, allow me to offer an analogy. This is like saying that after the handover of Hong Kong to China, all Hong Kongers should have left Hong Kong and come to the United Kingdom. This doesn't make sense, because they're from Hong Kong and should have a right to be there, regardless of whether Hong Kong is ultimately under the jurisdiction of the UK, of China or its own independent rule. Same situation applies, these people are from Palestine, regardless of who's ruling Palestine, or which national entity it's a part of.

I still ask you to cite the international law? Are you able to do this?

The UN is extremely biased against Israel. The US should defund the vile institution and kick their butts out of NY. Therefore, their resolutions which mainly all target Israel, as if Israel is the only country on the planet, are just nonsense.

I didn't say they have to move. They can stay, and become legal residents.

However, if they are unwilling to do that, they should go back to their home country.

They don't get to start another country within someone else's country, especially when their intention is to destroy the other person's country. In Israel's case it has a very small amount of land. It's about the size of New Jersey, with the arab countries many of whom are still in a technical state of war with Israel the size of the US.

Giving away it's land for vague promises of peace would be suicide.

It tried it in Gaza. In 2005 they forcefully evicted all the Jew from the area, ethnically cleansing that area. Since that time over 10,000 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel's populated areas.

Why should Israel commit suicide? At least let Israel's enemies put effort into trying to destroy the country.

 

[CMike]

As for those two videos - 1) the Israeli occupation of the West Bank need not be the only barrier to the peace process, I never said that, and what's more interpretations of international law as to whether or not the occupation if illegal, and whether or not the settlements are legal (and of course thy're settlements, in the same way London is a settlement, or Shanghai is a settlement) are basically neither here nor there, because they're causing suffering to millions of people by being a factor inhibiting the peace process, and that's what I'm against.
2) I never said Israel shouldn't exist.

Once again, what international law? You said it violates international law, so please cite the specific law.

You would need to show that international law that states:

a) If a country (A) invades your country,(B) and that country (A) loses territory, that the inhabitants, have a legal right to have their own country within that country (C)

b) It's illegal for the country that was invaded to build homes in the land that was captured.

Can you show this?

What is causing suffering is the arab governments refusal to want to reach peace.

Under Clinton Israel agreed to give them about 98% of the land that they wanted. The arab governments refused.

The problem is that they don't want peace. They want to destroy Israel.

This is recent news.

US Court Finds Palestinian Authority Guilty of Terrorism; Damages May Exceed $655 Million | United with Israel

utm_source=MadMimi&utm_medium=email&utm_content=BREAKING%3A+Palestinian+Authority+Guilty+in+US+Terror+Trial%3B+Award+to+Top+%24655+Million&utm_campaign=20150223_m124549246_BREAKING%3A+Palestinian+Authority+Guilty+in+US+Terror+Trial%3B+Award+to+Top+%24655+Million&utm_term=US+Court+Finds+Palestinian+Authority+Guilty+of+Terrorism_3B+Damages+May+Exceed+_24655+Million

US Court Finds Palestinian Authority Guilty of Terrorism; Damages to Exceed $655M

he Palestinian Authority was found guilty of inciting terror attacks that led to the deaths of US citizens in Israel during the Second Intifada. A landmark victory for Israel!

The winning legal team outside the Manhattan courtroom: Nitzana Darshan-Leitner (C) and Kent Yalowitz (2L). (Photo: Facebook)

Kent Yalowitz, lead prosecuting attorney of alandmark trial against Palestinian terror, proudly declared that “the Palestinian Authority and the PLO have been found liable by an American jury for six heinous terrorist attacks that killed and injured hundreds of civilians.”

The Israel Law Center, an Israel-based legal rights organization (known as Shurat Hadin in Hebrew), represented 10 families that took the Palestinian Authority to court for inciting, planning and carrying out six terror attacks that killed American citizens in Israel during the Second Intifada, or specifically between 2002 and 2004.

There is no one for Israel to negotiate with.

Living in your home isn't a settlement.

The funny thing is that arabs live all throughout Israel, many as Israeli citizens, and that fine.

However, Jew living in their capital on the east side are not supposed to live there because it offends some of the arabs. I say screw them.

They wish to ethnically cleanse these areas of Jews. Unfortunately, that has happened in Gaza, and nothing good came out of it. Instead, it just became a fortress to launch terrorist attacks from.

 

[CMike]

To clarify, I am against the existence of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. I believe that the explicitly-Jewish nature of the State of Israel is harmful, and it should throw out all ethnic nationalism and mixture of church and state within its governmental system. I don't believe Israel should be a Jewish state, I believe it should be an Israeli state. Before you ask, yes, I also support this throwing-out of ethnic nationalism and mixture of religion and government in Jordan, in Lebanon, in Egypt, in Saudi Arabia, in the Palestinian parties (yeah Fatah!).

However, of all the countries in the middle east, Israel gives the most religious freedom to all religions.

Heck it even has a mosque on the most holiest site in Judaism.

Actually I am enjoying this discussion with you.

You are ready to listen.

Most of the anti-Israel crowd just act in a brain dead manner, and just yell out, apartheid, genocide, occupation, with really no concept what these terms really mean, and whether Israel has actually done these things.

 

[Kirran]

I still ask you to cite the international law? Are you able to do this?

Below.

I didn't say they have to move. They can stay, and become legal residents.

However, if they are unwilling to do that, they should go back to their home country.

They don't get to start another country within someone else's country, especially when their intention is to destroy the other person's country. In Israel's case it has a very small amount of land. It's about the size of New Jersey, with the arab countries many of whom are still in a technical state of war with Israel the size of the US.

They were there first, and they can't go back to their home country because they're IN their home country. They are from Palestine. Their families do not originate in what are now Jordan and Iraq, their origins are in Palestine. This is straightforward.

Once again, what international law? You said it violates international law, so please cite the specific law.

Article 3 of the Geneva Convention.

As well as Israeli law, see the Sasson Report.

What is causing suffering is the arab governments refusal to want to reach peace.

This is a major factor, yes.

Under Clinton Israel agreed to give them about 98% of the land that they wanted. The arab governments refused.

The problem is that they don't want peace. They want to destroy Israel.

This is recent news.

US Court Finds Palestinian Authority Guilty of Terrorism; Damages May Exceed $655 Million | United with Israel

When you say Arab governments, who do you refer to? The Yemeni government? The Algerian government? Hamas?

No, they didn't accept 98%, they wanted 100%, because they saw it as having 2% of their land taken. Isn't tenable today.

Living in your home isn't a settlement.

Human settlement, a community where people live.

The funny thing is that arabs live all throughout Israel, many as Israeli citizens, and that fine.

However, Jew living in their capital on the east side are not supposed to live there because it offends some of the arabs. I say screw them.

They wish to ethnically cleanse these areas of Jews. Unfortunately, that has happened in Gaza, and nothing good came out of it. Instead, it just became a fortress to launch terrorist attacks from.

I am also against those Palestinians who want to ethnically cleanse Jews. Most do not. They do want to have their own land under their own government.

However, of all the countries in the middle east, Israel gives the most religious freedom to all religions.

Heck it even has a mosque on the most holiest site in Judaism.

That's true, and it's to be commended. But it can do more.

Actually I am enjoying this discussion with you.

You are ready to listen.

Most of the anti-Israel crowd just act in a brain dead manner, and just yell out, apartheid, genocide, occupation, with really no concept what these terms really mean, and whether Israel has actually done these things.

Well, thankyou. Listening in a debate is often more conducive to dialogue.

I do agree that it's an occupation, I can see where genocide accusations are coming from, and I can see the similarities to the apartheid regime.