• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is atheism a religion?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Again, you are misrepresenting what I said. When you use the term "myself", I'm going to assume that you mean some attribute or special trait about yourself. Maybe you can give me an example of a personal attack on any of these qualities. Or do you think that if someone disagrees with you, that it is an attack on you personally?
No, I certainly do not think that if someone disagrees with me that is a personal attack.

Below is what I consider personal. I did not say it was a personal attack. I said it was critical and derogatory and it is directed at my person, it is not about my beliefs per se.

“You never miss an opportunity to sermonize, editorialize, and proselytize your faith, do you? I'm not going to ask you to provide any evidence for any of the knowledge claims you've made. Or, why one God is more or less important than another. I've been down this road to obfuscations and avoidance before.”
#413 Truly Enlightened, Yesterday at 6:01 AM
If you claim that a messenger from a God exists, I would expect you to provide some evidence to support your position. If you claim that you are Napoleon, I would certainly question your sanity. Should I only take your word for it, or risk being called disrespectful?
I do not have any problem with you asking me for evidence. What I have a problem with is being told it is not evidence or being asked for more evidence than I can possibly provide, being told I am obfuscating and avoiding. If it is not evidence *for you* I accept that, but it is evidence *for me.* You should not take my word for anything but I can only provide the evidence I have. If it does not constitute evidence for you then the conversation about evidence is over.
An attack on the logic and consistency of your argument, is not an attack on you personally.
Then show how my argument is illogical and inconsistent.

Your allegations of fallacious logic and empty assertions are meaningless without any context.
My wife since '79, knows me better than I know myself. This is exactly what I would expect from such a long relationship. She sometimes even knows what I am thinking, and can finish my sentences. Since I forget more than I remember as I age, I'm glad that she's here with me.
I would hope that I know myself better than anyone else since self-awareness is very important to me. My husband of 33 years does not know any more than I tell him because he is not a mind reader. Yet he does know me better than anyone else, except God.
I apologize for any comments I have made directed at you personally. That was never my intention. I'm only interested in the rationality of your arguments, not your professed beliefs, or the kind of person you are. I do find many faults in your arguments. Maybe I should simply follow the quotes in your text without question. I've always thought that by correcting mistakes, we can acquire new knowledge.
Apology accepted. If you find faults with my arguments then you can point those out. Otherwise I have no idea what you are referring to. I do not know that I have presented any arguments, because I am not trying to prove anything. That is what arguments are for. All I do is share beliefs. Religious beliefs cannot be proven as objective facts.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No special definition for atheism.
Yes, it really is.

But I'm curious: I call myself an atheist and I don't adhere to your definition. Is it your position:

- that I'm not actually an atheist? ... or
- that I'm lying when I say I don't reject all gods?
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
Are believers reduced to manipulating the definitions of terms, to give their position the appearance of credibility? No amount of syntactical or semantic gymnastics, will absolve them of their burden of proof. If faith is the only support, then the entire construct will crumble under any critical scrutiny. Faith is not the best building material to use.

Atheism is a view, a conclusion, a supposition, an opinion, an assumption, a level of certainty, a logical deduction, and the supposition that a God(s) does not exist. A conclusion based on the fact, that throughout all of human history, no empirical evidence can demonstrate that a God(s) has ever or does exist. This argument of faith vs. facts has been waging for centuries. Atheists require just one piece of objective evidence to demonstrate the existence of anything supernatural, spiritual, mystical, or paranormal. A resurrection, a miracle, an answered prayer, a fulfilled prophecy, or even a confirmed paranormal activity would do. So far, zilch, nada. Believers need only faith, and the application of top-down logic to sustain their conviction.

Theology is the study of the nature of God, or other religious beliefs. Atheism is not the study of either. Atheism is not a theological position on theology, it is a personal position about an aspect of theology. It is supported by the highest level of certainty. I think that Atheism is more of a choice than a position(religious or otherwise). You can choose to accept the evidence that suggests that a God(s) can't exist within our reality. Or, you can ignore/dismiss the evidence, and believe that a God(s) can exist without any need for empirical justification(faith). Atheist chose the former.

Atheism is level of certainly not a religion. No matter how many ways you try to spin it. No matter how many words you need to redefine. What do Atheists worship-- their non-belief Atheism? This is silly, fallacious(circular), and irrational. There are no holy tenets, no deities, no inherent practices, nothing to worship, no required devotion, no religious teachings, no faith required, no religious or Atheistic hierarchies, Nada. So what is your logic on this logic?

Atheism is not a religion, because Atheists don't believe in a Deity
Many other religions, also don't believe in a Deity, and are still called religions
Therefore, Atheism must also be a religion.

How about,

Church is a place where people meet, worship, and pray to some form of Deity or some religious supernatural belief
Atheist do not believe in a God(s), or worship some form of religious supernatural belief
Some Atheists attend a church
Therefore the church becomes an Atheist Church

Can anyone spot the glaring logical fallacies in both constructs? The biggest difference between Atheists and Theists, is that, it would only take one objective, observable, verifiable, and falsifiable bit of evidence to change the mind of any Atheist. But God Himself couldn't change the mind of a Theist. As one poster stated, "You can bet your bottom dollar on that. Likewise, you can show me 1,000 false prophets but I will still know that there can be a true prophet. This has absolutely nothing to do with my *need to believe*. It is logic 101 stuff, because it is the fallacy of hasty generalization to say that because most psychics are frauds all psychics are frauds" What he fails to understand, and ignore, is that the evidence and results are predictable, unbiased and justified(scientific). Therefore, not a hasty generalization fallacy. If one hundred pigs are push off a tall building to see if pigs can fly. If all 100 pigs fail to fly, is this still a case of hasty generalization? Will you still believe that eventually one pig will fly? As you can see, cognitive dissonance is a very powerful at controlling our beliefs, attitudes, and behavior.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, it really is.

But I'm curious: I call myself an atheist and I don't adhere to your definition. Is it your position:

- that I'm not actually an atheist? ... or
- that I'm lying when I say I don't reject all gods?

How you define your belief is your problem. Do not expect everyone to agree with how you.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I'm sure you are also aware of the old adage, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You are the one making the extraordinary claim that spirits have communicated to mediums. Yet you offer absolutely no evidence to support that extraordinary claim - none.

How do you know I have no evidence? I have *what I consider* evidence and I have been working on a thread to post related to this subject. I just have not had the time to finish it yet.
I anxiously await your new thread. I hope I don't miss it,
On the other hand, mediums purporting to call on spirits have repeatedly been shown to be frauds.
That is true, but that is not evidence that all mediums are frauds.

  • It is true that all mediums that have been tested have been shown to be frauds.
  • Many mediums refuse to be tested.
  • By carefully observing mediums, I can often see where they are using fraudulent practices.
I anxiously await your new thread. I hope I don't miss it,
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
No, I certainly do not think that if someone disagrees with me that is a personal attack.

Below is what I consider personal. I did not say it was a personal attack. I said it was critical and derogatory and it is directed at my person, it is not about my beliefs per se.

“You never miss an opportunity to sermonize, editorialize, and proselytize your faith, do you? I'm not going to ask you to provide any evidence for any of the knowledge claims you've made. Or, why one God is more or less important than another. I've been down this road to obfuscations and avoidance before.”
#413 Truly Enlightened, Yesterday at 6:01 AM

I do not have any problem with you asking me for evidence. What I have a problem with is being told it is not evidence or being asked for more evidence than I can possibly provide, being told I am obfuscating and avoiding. If it is not evidence *for you* I accept that, but it is evidence *for me.* You should not take my word for anything but I can only provide the evidence I have. If it does not constitute evidence for you then the conversation about evidence is over.

Then show how my argument is illogical and inconsistent.

Your allegations of fallacious logic and empty assertions are meaningless without any context.

I would hope that I know myself better than anyone else since self-awareness is very important to me. My husband of 33 years does not know any more than I tell him because he is not a mind reader. Yet he does know me better than anyone else, except God.

Apology accepted. If you find faults with my arguments then you can point those out. Otherwise I have no idea what you are referring to. I do not know that I have presented any arguments, because I am not trying to prove anything. That is what arguments are for. All I do is share beliefs. Religious beliefs cannot be proven as objective facts.


"You never miss an opportunity to sermonize, editorialize, and proselytize your faith, do you?" Is this what you call a personal attack on you? What is the personal statement that I am contradicting? This comment by me is not an attack on your character. It is a reasoned valid conclusion based on an inordinate amount of time I've spent arguing with you, and other members of your faith. My statement is based entirely on that experience. Why do you keep quoting from a book, that is not considered objective or a proven authority? Let's look at more example of why I would feel this way.

You say that you don't have a problem with people asking you questions. Then you claim that you only have a problem with people not accepting the evidence/answers that you provide them. You then claim that you do have a problem with people asking for further evidence, or claiming that you are just obfuscating or avoiding the question. Finally , you claim that if the evidence you present is not accepted, then the conversation is over. Does this sound logical, or intellectually honest to you? This would allow me to claimed that I own an invisible polka dot ribbit, with invisible droppings, in an invisible house. I could assert that any evidence that I provide, should be sufficient to satisfy your non-belief. If it doesn't, then the conversation is over. Do you at least see a problem here? Extraordinary claims, requires extraordinary evidence. Are you at all cognizant of the significance, and importance of your incredible claims? Do you think that "I'm not here to convince anyone of anything...", or "The evidence is sufficient enough for me to believe", or "It is irrational to expect objective evidence, about anything outside of science", should be taken as an informed and enlightened response?

Every truth/knowledge assertion you make hinges on the evidence that you can provide. If you have none that can stand up to even the most basic scrutiny, then that evidence is not very reliable is it? If all you can deposit are approved cites, quotes, or sites, then you are sermonizing, editorializing, and proselytizing. What you are not doing, is providing independent evidence to support your claims. Why is your fall-back position always, "Its my belief, and I'm not here to convince anyone about my belief"? Why do I now know a thousands times more about the Baha'i faith, then before? Look, if you only believe that your claims are true, then you have the right to believe in anything you want. But if you claim to know that your claims are true, then please demonstrate exactly how you know this.

I really think that after 33 years of marriage, your husband may knows more about you then you think he does. There are many other ways of knowing a person, without being able to read their mind. I believe that our understanding of ourselves is confirmed through our interaction with others. The only way you could know yourself, is to develop an objective perspective from outside of yourselves. Of course this is impossible. For example, if you took an adult dog, and threw him in with a pack of other dogs, he would quickly learn his position within the pack. Why do you think that is? Do you think it has something to do with his knowing himself, more that the other dogs do?
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Ahhh...Spirits that talk to those that believe in beliefs.
Enlarging the fear of one's end of life, to become a spirit.
Good luck with taking those vocal chords with you,
don't forget your megaphone, or your mind !
 

ecco

Veteran Member

ecco previously:
Nonsense. Are you familiar with the term "cold reading"? A person with a lot of experience in busting mediums could show you, in detail, what the medium is doing. I'm not anywhere near that level of expertise, however, I can spot a lot of the BS tricks. I can see when a medium glosses over wrong guesses. I can see where a medium is probing. Also, with high dollar clients, the mediums do some investigating beforehand.


I got the same response from an atheist on another forum. However, there are some things a medium could not possibly know. Also, you are assuming, without evidence, that all mediums are scam artists. One has to look at the motives of any person to know if they are sincere or a lying con artist.

ecco now: Seriously? The motive is money and, for some, fame and access.

As far as "there are some things a medium could not possibly know", I'd again have to ask for more detail.




Here is a short video about the famous Long Island Medium.
I don't expect you to watch it, it might interfere with your hopes.


That is a joke because I have a mind so I can differentiate between scammers and fakes and real mediums. I am not hoping for anything but I know there is a spiritual world and an afterlife. I do not need a medium to tell me that. I know that because Baha’u’llah wrote it.

I don't understand your response. Did you or did you not watch the video?


More nonsense. If you are shown fifty instances of frauds, you will still say "but that does not mean all of them are." because your need to believe outweighs the evidence.

You can bet your bottom dollar on that. Likewise, you can show me 1,000 false prophets but I will still know that there can be a true prophet. This has absolutely nothing to do with my *need to believe*. It is logic 101 stuff, because it is the fallacy of hasty generalization to say that because most psychics are frauds all psychics are frauds.

Nonsense.

Send me $25 and I'll go to a medium and tell her I want to talk to my (very fictional) dead aunt. I'll even secretly record the event and send a transcript to you.

All mediums are not created equal. It would cost more than $25.

So, are you saying that real mediums charge more money than fake mediums? Sylvia Browne was one of the highest priced mediums. She was a fraud.

You just said, "anything that contradicts science is mere superstition". Before that, you were defending mediums talking to spirits. Make up your mind.


I was waiting for that. Communication with spirits does not contradict science; it is simply outside the purview of science.

And I was waiting for that. Anything supernatural contradicts science. If it's "out of the purview" it contradicts. If you want to take that approach, the following are all equally possible.
  • Allah is the only true god.
  • Everything was created Last Thursday.
  • The Universe and the earth were created 6000 years ago.







So, the words of a mortal human messenger have more truth for you than the words of an eternal God(s). Interesting.

The words of Messengers of God are the same as the words of God because they perfectly represent the will of God.

The big problem with that is there is NO way to KNOW who is a true messenger and who is delusional or who is a con man. Many people considered David Koresh to be a true messenger.
 

ProveYourFaith

ProveYourFaith
In that case, it is a religion that I visit the toilet everyday. It is a religion that I respond to posters on this forum. And for many, marriage seems also to be a religion. I'm going to assume that you didn't mean that you DO think that you are cherry-picking the definition of Apologetics, since that would blatantly be intellectually dishonest deceptive, and fallacious. Apologetics is the "religious discipline of defending a religious doctrine". Here are twenty Apologists that might disagree with your definition. Top 20 Christian Apologists | CrossExamined.org



I would strongly suggest, that you take your own advice.
No, I pretty much proved you wrong. The word outdates the only Religions that use Greek. You are limited to what you can look up today not able to search origin. That's ok not everyone can do that. Also, I haven't even started on the term Religion yet. let me bring it home again the Word outdates Christianity all together......That means the word is not about Christianity at all......Understand??? You can do it just try... You talk like a kid. How old are you seriously? 69 I doubt that...You're a millennial for sure.
 
Last edited:

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
No, I pretty much proved you wrong. The word outdates the only Religions that use Greek. You are limited to what you can look up today not able to search origin. That's ok not everyone can do that. Also, I haven't even started on the term Religion yet. let me bring it home again the Word outdates Christianity all together......That means the word is not about Christianity at all......Understand??? You can do it just try... You talk like a kid. How old are you seriously? 69 I doubt that...You're a millennial for sure.

The Origin of this Greek, Latin, and French word(1640), does not predate Christianity(1 Century AD). This means that Christianity was here long before the word was even thought of. Since most dictionaries define Apologetics as a Christian discipline defending a religious doctrine, law, or belief, maybe you can give an example of what is a non-Christian, or non-Religious apologetic(not a non-apologists)? Other than Presuppositional, Classical, or Evidential, I don't know of any other examples outside of the Christian and Religious Belief systems. Or, is it only the definition you're trying to peddle? Maybe you should make another attempt at the etymology of the word "apologetics", before you make such a bold and incorrect comment. But since confirmation bias seems to be limiting your progress, let me help. apologetic | Origin and meaning of apologetic by Online Etymology Dictionary.

These are some of your silly comments,

Religion is defined as something you do constantly or over and over. I do think I cherry picked the definition of apologetics seeing its used apart from any religious conversation as well. We shouldn't box ourselves into limited views.
The word apologetics is derived from the ancient Greek Word apologia (ἀπολογία) which literally means in defense of the Law. The word predates Christianity which adopted it as a theological term for a defense of doctrine. It was not used for a defense of doctrine but only a defense of the Law before Christianity hijacked it. There are no great debates regarding if Athena was a blond or a brunette.
Apologist is defined:
A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

You have purposely diluted the definitions to apply to anything you want. Therefore any act to defend anything is now an apologetic. Anyone who defends anything is now an apologists. Therefore, Atheists now become apologists, practicing apologetics. Just more equivocating gymnastics. But after these statements it is your maturity that needs to be questioned.

Mainstream Christians, If we won't stop sinning (disobeying God) we will burn.
Climate Change, if we won't stop sinning (Polluting) we will burn.
Both even have date-setters telling us when the end will be. Seems the same to me.
By the way, my Faith is if you would like to live again after you die then stop sinning but sin may not be what you think it is.

Although Apologists and Apologetics are related, they have different meanings. Apologist vs Apologetics - What's the difference?. We are talking about the current use of the word here(apologetics), which is defined as a Christian discipline defending a Christian or other religious doctrines. It is not necessary for me to manipulate parts of the definition to support my narrative. I will let your arrogance and unprovoked insults go this time.
 
Top