Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

[osgart]

I agree with everything you said here.

That isn't the issue.

Is honesty always better than lying?

Lying to children can in certain cases be beneficial. Santa? it's a harmful lie, but for a lot of children, this brings joy. Lying might help protect them.

So then we have to specify what we mean by "bad" lies, that should be fairly easy.

My idea of freedom might be completely different than yours, should we have so much freedom that we don't need any government? Anarchists would think this is perfect, others would disagree. Are parents free to raise their children as they please with whatever value system they think is best?

The point is that people simply don't agree on these things.

I think you could probably best compare to that of God, "all" believers think God exists, and they all agree. The moment you start probing them about what exactly this God is, they have vastly different views and opinions about which rules apply, what God wants and don't want etc.

And that is what I mean by jumping over where the fence is lowest. Because one stops at the question "Do we agree that God is real?" and the answer by believers is "Yes" and then we move on, assuming that everyone agrees about the nature of God.

If I asked you to specify what you mean by "honor", how do you define it then I want you to go into detail about why this is morally good and exactly what it includes. I guess that, if we threw this out to 1000 people you would get vastly different opinions about what honor is, some would agree others would probably disagree with you. (Don't answer this, I don't expect you to do this, it is simply an example )

So reaching a moral foundation I think is extremely difficult, the next issue is whether this would even make any difference.

I think we can agree that in general the majority of people are raised with the moral code, that "murdering is wrong", yet despite this, it happens all the time. So even when we largely agree on something, it doesn't seem to have the desired effect.

Lying can be an honest necessity for the protection of innocent life, and for other honest reasons. I don't define honesty as telling the whole truth no matter what. Honesty in my definition is as much concealing matters, as well as telling someone what they deserve to hear from you. Honesty is also good will.

Lying and telling falsehoods are two separate things. Not all deception is murderous nor dishonest. Lying in it's most urgent sense is when someone is being maliciously deceptive.

Honor to me is deserved esteem; the kind that is deserved by personal nature or well earned.

Well free societies have better moral foundations than dictator run societies. Human nature will always be a spectrum of good, bad, indifferent, conflicted, ignorant, truthful, deceitful. So it's always a battle of minorities, majorities, in groups, out groups. I don't see all people attaining to a universal moral standard. However something can be morally true despite anyone agreeing on the matter. Moral truth can be totally ignored, or only realized by an insignificant few.

Words can be defined in so many ways. Language can be meaningful, or watered down into utter meaninglessness. Words can lose valuable meaning over time. Word ambiguity and confusion is nothing new. That doesn't mean that there are not ways of defining morality so that moral facts result. So a fact would be something that has a definite cause/effect actuality in the world.

 

[Bear Wild]

Moral Agent - Ethics Unwrapped

A Moral Agent is a person who can be held accountable for his or her actions because he or she has the ability to tell right from wrong.

ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu

At this point, I see no reason to consider non-human animals to be moral agents and hold them accountable to the same extent as humans.

That is a clear anthropocentric perspective with your subjective position based on your world view/religion. There is clear social structure within animal groups and within that group they have moral agency just not human moral agency in my subjective position.
Morals are subjective.

As for justice as in human laws and courts, there are greater forms of justice than just human.

 

[osgart]

This is subjective morality. It is based on your world view or your religion. When you say good for you and good for others, exactly what others are you referring to?

To be on the receiving end of the options what is good for yourself. To be on the receiving end of the options what is good for others. From my list.

 

[Bear Wild]

To be on the receiving end of the options what is good for yourself. To be on the receiving end of the options what is good for others. From my list.

What I am asking is when you say others, is this a limited number of people around you, the general human population, all living things, or everything in the world. We can have actions that help certain groups which can directly or indirectly have negative affects on others.

 

[osgart]

What I am asking is when you say others, is this a limited number of people around you, the general human population, all living things, or everything in the world. We can have actions that help certain groups which can directly or indirectly have negative affects on others.

All living things, and particularly humans.

 

[Bear Wild]

All living things, and particularly humans.

Appreciate the extension to all living things.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is the idea of there not being any unicorns or leprechauns also "at the core of your worldview"?

The only reason why atheism seems significant, is because culturally theists have been screaming for millenia that it somehow is. But really, it isn't.
Something doesn't become significant because people believe it is.

Not believing gods are real doesn't seem any more significant then not believing leprechauns are real.

Aside from forum discussions like this one, gods are complete non-issues in my every day life.
In any given area of my life, they are about as relevant as leprechauns and unicorns.
Which is to say: not at all.

You are correct. No leprechauns or unicorns too.
I do not believe even the universe to be real - illusion, maya.
For me, they are not non-issues because most people need them, otherwise they will flop down like empty sacks.

Is evil just a form of human insanity which could conceivably be cured?

Can it be cured? In most cases - not. It is Samskara - to total of their religion, upbringing, education and experiences.

 

[Stevicus]

Can it be cured? In most cases - not. It is Samskara - to total of their religion, upbringing, education and experiences.

Yes, it makes sense that a person's upbringing, environment, and experiences would shape an individual's psyche, which could lead to sociopathic behavior often associated with evil.

But modern methods seem to favor rehabilitation and treatment, ostensibly in the view that it could cure or alleviate whatever aberrant mental processes are taking place inside someone's brain - to try to turn an "evil" person into a "good" person. Religion can't seem to do it, but maybe science can.

 

[Bear Wild]

Yes, it makes sense that a person's upbringing, environment, and experiences would shape an individual's psyche, which could lead to sociopathic behavior often associated with evil.

How do you know when something is evil? I am not implying anything in this question other than to ask what is your source to determine what is evil.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But modern methods seem to favor rehabilitation and treatment, ostensibly in the view that it could cure or alleviate whatever aberrant mental processes are taking place inside someone's brain - to try to turn an "evil" person into a "good" person. Religion can't seem to do it, but maybe science can.

Unfortunately it is a long and costly procedure. With 1,441 million people, India hardly can be that patient or have that kind of money. My preference is for harsh measures although the government has made it milder with new laws. Local scenario.

 

[Bear Wild]

No leprechauns or unicorns too

So what do I tell the leprechaun sitting next to me? He is not very happy with your statement and wants to know why you think he is not real. He would like to return the compliment and let you know he thinks you may not be real. I told him you were real.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So what do I tell the leprechaun sitting next to me? He is not very happy with your statement and wants to know why you think he is not real. He would like to return the compliment and let you know he thinks you may not be real. I told him you were real.

Leprechauns and God should make their presence felt. They never do so.
No, I am not real in true sense. I am just an illusion, maya, which has already lasted for 81 years.

 

[Balthazzar]

I wish I understood the question.

Well, John ... Are ya happy ... Man? Atheism alone wouldn't constitute a world view, but with the often-presumed addition of being evidence and truth oriented, it might could be considered a type of world view.

 

[Bear Wild]

Leprechauns and God should make their presence felt. They never do so.
No, I am not real in true sense. I am just an illusion, maya, which has already lasted for 81 years.

Thanks, I explained this to my leprechaun friend and he feels better and promises not to find you and cause mischief. On a more serous note, when I was in Ireland I felt the presence of several numinous beings but could not say any were leprechauns.

 

[Stevicus]

How do you know when something is evil? I am not implying anything in this question other than to ask what is your source to determine what is evil.

I don't know that something is "evil." Evil is just a vague approximation which is often associated with horrendous and atrocious human actions - such as murder, rape, crimes against humanity, and things of that nature. Some might define "evil" as a state of mind influenced by something supernatural, although I don't really believe in that. It is my opinion that, whatever may be wrong in someone's brain that causes them to do such horrible things, it seems there must be a more scientific explanation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thanks, I explained this to my leprechaun friend and he feels better and promises not to find you and cause mischief. On a more serous note, when I was in Ireland I felt the presence of several numinous beings but could not say any were leprechauns.

It is SAD in colder climates (Seasonal Affectuve Disorder). People feel the presence of imaginary beings. Not so much in hotter climes like in India.
We do not have a festival like Halloween.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I find this assessment and definition to be senseless and missing the point. It sounds like you are saying that the military would be in the murder business, and all matters of ending life are murder. There's nothing obscure about murder vs. killing. You are muddying the waters by saying murder is killing. Hitler is too dangerous to be left alive.

Animals kill to survive another day. The universe has no moral compass but morality is real nevertheless. Murder though has malicious intentions, and cannot be justified for one thing. Killing animals within reason is justified by the necessity to survive and use the animals for necessary food. Murder is for wicked power and pleasure in ending life and is highly immoral. Killing is different because it has no malice and can be justified. There's no pleasure in ending life if you are a killer. Morality is the internal motives behind the action that drive it to happen. Ethics is how we control behaviour and apply morality in situations.



Your lumping all killers in with murderers. That's a recipe for disaster.

I’m reminded, by your observation about the military being in the murder business, of the words of Harry Patch, the last surviving English veteran of WWI. For decades, Harry never spoke a word about his experiences in the trenches in Flanders, but in his 90s he opened up and began talking; and every time he spoke about the war he would assert in his slow and gentle West Country English drawl, “Legalised murder. That’s all it was.”

 

[Bear Wild]

It is SAD in colder climates (Seasonal Affectuve Disorder). People feel the presence of imaginary beings. Not so much in hotter climes like in India.
We do not have a festival like Halloween.

At least now I know I must have a disorder. All of my ancestor's had the same disorder going back millions of years. And wait not just my ancestor's but most of humanity who didn’t know the had a disorder. Why it has only been in the last 100’s of years that humans have learn that there is sometime absolutely wrong with them. Thank you for the diagnosis. I will tell my leprechaun friend know when he gets back from riding in his unicorn

 

[osgart]

I’m reminded, by your observation about the military being in the murder business, of the words of Harry Patch, the last surviving English veteran of WWI. For decades, Harry never spoke a word about his experiences in the trenches in Flanders, but in his 90s he opened up and began talking; and every time he spoke about the war he would assert in his slow and gentle West Country English drawl, “Legalised murder. That’s all it was.”

It's because of murder and mayhem that the military becomes a necessity. So a legitimate military is concerned with the need to kill. An illegitimate military is legalized murder. Murder vs. Killing is certainly not based on convenience, whim, nor is it arbitrary. I'm very sure that suspicious actions go on though. I'm not denying that. I don't honor the service of murderers. I'm sure the ethics of war is complicated, while the morality of war is simple.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I presume there are atheists all around the world, so to a certain extent I guess so.