Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

[IndigoChild5559]

Excuse me for butting in but I'd say the ontology of atheism is the view of physicalism. Anything that exists is composed of stuff. It a 'view from no where' which makes no sense of our inner life.

There are atheists that are not physicalists. For example,

• An atheist might have grown up with the Hindu concept that the world is illusion, and even though they ditch the idea of gods, they continue to maintain this understanding of reality.
• An atheist might consider abstractions such as math to be actual reality.
• An atheist may have a concept of a source/reality underlying the universe, which is really not quite the same thing as a God.
• An atheist may be a baby who has not yet developed any idea of reality.
• An atheist may simply be a person who just doesn't care about such questions like what is real.

Atheistic epistemology leans heavily on science and logic, leaving out or at least devaluing the humanities in the process.

While this might be quite common, especially in the west, it simply is not universal. Imagine a person growing up in the jungles of the Amazon, who decides the gods are not real, but who has never even heard of science or logic.

Axiology is based heavily on utility or the thought that values don't really exist. They are 'just made up' or at least arbitrary, sometimes attributed to the hegemony of various religions.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

For atheism to have an axiology, it would mean that all atheists share the same values and ethics. That's just not the case. While certain axiologies are more common among atheists, none are universal.

 

[paarsurrey]

Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

I'd say the ontology of atheism is the view of physicalism. Anything that exists is composed of stuff. It a 'view from no where' which makes no sense of our inner life.
Excellent point, I much liked.
I suggest to discuss Atheism (et al) in the West, separately, as all these terminology/philosophy is developed in the West and to generalize it to other Atheism (et al) in the East would affect the analysis badly, they have their own philosophy, religions and terminology quite different from the Western, please, right?

Regards

 

[PureX]

You are claiming that atheism is worldview.

I am claiming that atheism is a significant PART of a world view that is common among atheists (but not exclusive to them).

A world view has a minimum of three things: an ontology, an epistimology, and an axiology. In order for you to prove your case, you will need to identify those.

I am not here to "prove" anything to anyone. This is not your "kangaroo courtroom". (Sorry, but I get so tired of this "come stand before me so I can judge you wrong and me right according to my own bias" thing that so many atheists these days are absolutely addicted to!) And @Whateverist has already explained this fairly well, and I have even added my $.02 to it. If you still don't understand, ask specific questions.

I have changed a number of opinions of mine on significant things in my life. I do indeed listen to others, although sometimes I have to chew on an idea for a while, a day, a week, years.

I completely understand.

But yes, I do actually respond to evidence and good arguments.

But try to keep in mind that "evidence" and "good arguments" are, themselves. expressions of bias. This seems to be an idea that atheists (not saying you) have great difficulty accepting. Their "world view" holds these methods in such high regard that they just cannot comprehend how they could be self-deceiving.

So I cannot promise you that I will agree with you. But I can promise you that I will be open and listen.

Nor can I promise you that I'm right, though I usually am.

The reason that I have not "already done this for myself" is because atheism has no ontology, epistimology, or axiology.

No. But that was never my assertion. My assertion was that atheism is a significant PART of a worldview that is common among atheists, that does exhibit all those characteristics listed above.

That's why I was trying to explain to you that we cannot consider it a world view. Atheism is limited to "I don't have a belief in God/gods." That's not a worldview.

Atheism is not a 'world' view, it's a "God"(less) view. But in more recent years it has become indemnified with a materialist, pseudo-scientific, hyper-empirical, near cult-like worship of functional knowledge at the very dangerous expense of other very long-standing methods and means we humans have of negotiating with the mystery of our (and all) existence.

 

[Whateverist]

There are atheists that are not

Indeed. I needed to have made it clear I was describing the characteristics of many atheists I've interacted with online. I doubt there is very much one can say that would fit all atheists except, as you say, to assert lack of belief in whatever God/gods may refer to. But with that fixed what I wrote describes the bulk of those I've interacted with.

Of course one could say something similar about Christians when you consider who all claim to fit in that tent and even if the vast majority of Christians will deny that some others in the tent do not belong there. For that matter even in Judaism I don't think we get one homogenized product. Some claim God while others have told me they are there for the culture and community.

What I've said should be taken as how atheism seems to me from my current POV. Certainly I've done no research or polling to determine how well my experience matches with anything objective.

 

[paarsurrey]

Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

(Now I predict you will run to the dictionary and start posting examples of the misuse of these terms as though their misuse somehow justifies itself, and consequently, justifies your continued misuse.)

To refute the dictionary illusion, I suggest:
Etymology online (Etymonline - Online Etymology Dictionary) and Thesaurus- synonyms/antonyms (Thesaurus.com - The world's favorite online thesaurus!)
are useful and helpful, I understand, right, please?

Regards

 

[Whateverist]

I am claiming that atheism is a significant PART of a world view that is common among atheists (but not exclusive to them).

I agree. I think the tendency to view ourselves as animated matter and sometimes even lacking in free will is common to many modern people as is the strong reliance on science and reason to the exclusion of imagination and intuition where the humanities have so much to offer.

I spend sometime on an online Christian forums which is concerned with making STEM subjects palatable to believers, a goal I share and that I've argued with my one ardently Christian brother. I find many of them to have the same distrust of truth claims not supported by science and reason. Of course theology is the other basis they are happy to acknowledge but they don't seem to think that requires the same justification they'd expect of the humanities generally.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

I'd say the ontology of atheism is the view of physicalism. Anything that exists is composed of stuff. It a 'view from no where' which makes no sense of our inner life.

This has really turned into an excellent thread.

I would say that while physicalism is very common among atheists, especially in the west, it is by no means universal. I was going to link you to an earlier post that gave examples, but I can't seem to find it, so I will reconstruct it as best as possible for you.

Examples of atheists who are not physicalists/materialists:

• An atheist may have grown up Hindu, and even though they have ditched the gods, they might maintain the idea that the world is illusion.
• An atheist might hold to the idea that "reality" is nothing but a simulation.
• An atheist may have a concept of a source/reality that underlies the universe, which is not really the same thing as a god.
• An atheist might consider abstractions such as math to be an actual reality.
• An atheist might be a baby who has not yet formed any understanding of reality.
• An atheist might be a person who just doesn't even care about questions like what is real.

Excellent point, I much liked.
I suggest to discuss Atheism (et al) in the West, separately, as all these terminology/philosophy is developed in the West and to generalize it to other Atheism (et al) in the East would affect the analysis badly, they have their own philosophy, religions and terminology quite different from the Western, please, right?

Regards

I agree that many western concepts don't always fit well in the east. However, the idea of worldview IS a western concept, so it is appropriate to understand it in western terms.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's fair to say that atheism is not a worldview.
But that it tends to lead many to one to secular humanism.
Some believers head there too, so it's not exclusive to us heathens.

 

[paarsurrey]

Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

This is not your "kangaroo courtroom". (Sorry, but I get so tired of this "come stand before me so I can judge you wrong and me right according to my own bias" thing that so many atheists these days are absolutely addicted to!) And @Whateverist has already explained this fairly well, and I have even added my $.02 to it.

Excellent post again.

Regards

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

To refute the dictionary illusion, I suggest:
Etymology online (Etymonline - Online Etymology Dictionary) and Thesaurus- synonyms/antonyms (Thesaurus.com - The world's favorite online thesaurus!)
are useful and helpful, I understand, right, please?

Regards

Etymology is fascinating, But etymology can never be used as a source for definitions. This is because the meaning of words evolve over time. For example, the English word "terrific" originated in the 17th century and was derived from the Latin word terrificus, which means "causing terror" or "frightening." When it first entered the English language, "terrific" retained this original meaning of something that instills terror or fear. Today, the definition of terrific has no connection to terror at all, not even a teeny tiny bit.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Indeed. I needed to have made it clear I was describing the characteristics of many atheists I've interacted with online. I doubt there is very much one can say that would fit all atheists except, as you say, to assert lack of belief in whatever God/gods may refer to. But with that fixed what I wrote describes the bulk of those I've interacted with.

Oh, well, if that is the case, then I do absolutely agree with you: most (though not all) atheists have a worldview called secular humanism.

The only point here being that the opening post asked if atheism were a worldview. Since there are exceptions, that while certain ontologies etc. may be more common but are not universal, we cannot say that atheism is a worldview.

Of course one could say something similar about Christians when you consider who all claim to fit in that tent and even if the vast majority of Christians will deny that some others in the tent do not belong there. For that matter even in Judaism I don't think we get one homogenized product. Some claim God while others have told me they are there for the culture and community.

I'm not going to overthink this. I agree.

 

[PureX]

Oh, well, if that is the case, then I do agree with you: most (though not all) atheists have a worldview called secular humanism.

So do most theists, by a wide margin. So I see no great significance in atheists being secular humanists.

The only point here being that the opening post asked if atheism were a worldview. Since there are exceptions, that while certain ontologies etc. may be more common but are not universal, we cannot say that atheism is a worldview.

This is correct.

 

[paarsurrey]

Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

Of course theology is the other basis they are happy to acknowledge

Theology/Theist (et al) are the terminology of the Philosophy, better we believers use our own terminology (believers/unbelievers/non-believers) of our religions for clarity and steadfastness, right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

Atheism is not a 'world' view, it's a "God"(less) view. But in more recent years it has become indemnified with a materialist, pseudo-scientific, hyper-empirical, near cult-like worship of functional knowledge at the very dangerous expense of other very long-standing methods and means we humans have of negotiating with the mystery of our (and all) existence.

Cheers again.

Regards

 

[Whateverist]

I'm not sure if you saw it (I certainly don't read every post in a thread). I uploaded a video which addressed in the latter half what is a worldview and how it relates to atheism. It was done by a guy who had literally done his PhD dissertation on it. I'll upload it again here for you, just in case you may be interested.

Thank you very much. Indeed I rarely read an entire thread before posting. I rely quite a bit on intuition.

I do think his distinctions are useful and mostly accurate. Does he agree that atheism isn't the cause of a changing dominant modern perspective but rather one effect of a wider cultural change - which I would prefer see avoided or ameliorated.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thank you very much. Indeed I rarely read an entire thread before posting. I rely quite a bit on intuition.

I do think his distinctions are useful and mostly accurate. Does he agree that atheism isn't the cause of a changing dominant modern perspective but rather one effect of a wider cultural change - which I would prefer see avoided or ameliorated.

He doesn't really address those questions.

Most of the atheists I've talked to on that topic usually say things like, "As science reveals more an more facts about how the universe works, people will have less and less need to believe in a god, and religion will slowly died out." I think that is a simplistic view. It assumes that the primary reason for believing in God is to explain things. I don't think that's the case.

 

[Whateverist]

And atheism is not defined by whatever some idiot that claims to be an atheist thinks it is.

Completely agree and I find this equally true of determining what God/gods refers to. You can't just ask anybody who says they believe and have the answer.

 

[Audie]

It's fair to say that atheism is not a worldview.
But that it tends to lead many to one to secular humanism.
Some believers head there too, so it's not exclusive to us heathens.

Is just part of the pkg being of todays China.
No more a "lifestyle" or " worldview" determinant
disdain for american " football", or not practicing
Homeopathy.

 

[Whateverist]

"As science reveals more and more facts about how the universe works, people will have less and less need to believe in a god, and religion will slowly died out." I think that is a simplistic view.

It certainly is simplistic and wrong as well. Both the idea that science will eventually lay bare all truth and the idea that religions just is a holdover of a time when we knew less are simply wishful thinking on the part of those who have an urgent reason to want to reject religion without ever understanding what it is really for.

I found philosophical support for thinking a physicalist/deterministic POV inadequate by reading Iain McGilchrist's book The Matter With Things. I'm not an apostle of that thesis but it has greatly impacted my own.

 

[Whateverist]

Theology/Theist (et al) are the terminology of the Philosophy, better we believers use our own terminology (believers/unbelievers/non-believers) of our religions for clarity and steadfastness, right, please?

Sorry but I'm not sure if I understand your point here. Maybe you can tell me as someone not operating from within a particular tradition whether it would be accurate to understand ..

.. "theist" as one who places the highest authority in a received system of belief such as the Bible?; and ..

.. "theism" the articulated implications of the received belief system - which is probably always in need of adapting to a changing society.