Is Brahman same as Buddhist void(sunyata)

[Metempsychosis]

What do you say?

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

What do you say?

Yes.

From nothing comes form. To nothing form returns.

 

[Derry's Wall's]

I say no,Brahman is not as limiting as the Buddhist VOID I went to.Buddhist VOID is excellent & very enjoyable,as long as you stand up to the monks upon leaving.

 

[Metempsychosis]

No, conceptually they are different. Initially it is a question of philosophy and reasoning. The Vedantin who is searching will also accept Brahman as some-thing rather than no-thing due to the Vedas/Upanishads.

One may say it is more liberating to accept the Buddhist void, as it does not imply that there are any limitations or obligations, such as a God to worship or accept. This is a fear arising in the searcher. There is nothing to my knowledge which would imply Brahman has limits and limitations or obligations.

Right.Here is Vasistha's(Vedic Author/Sage) take on the Brahman or Void.

The cosmic intelligence in which the universe, as it were, ceases to be, is the Lord. In him the subject-object relationship appears to have ceased. as such. He is the void in which the universe appears to exist. In him even cosmic consciousness stands still like a mountain.

Even as the uncarved image is forever present in a block, the world whether you regard it as real or unreal is inherent in the absolute, which is therefore not void. Just as one cannot say that there are no waves present in a calm ocean, the absolute is not empty of the world.

In truth, however, this world does not arise from the absolute nor does it merge in it. The absolute alone exists now and for ever. When one thinks of it as a void. it is because of the feeling one has that it is not void; when one thinks of it as not void. it is because there is a feeling that it is void.

That self is empty like space; but it is not nothingness, since it is consciousness.It is: yet because it cannot be experienced by the mind and senses, it is not.It being the self of all. It is not experienced (as the object of experience) by anyone.Though one, it is reflected in the infinite atoms of existence and hence appears to be many. This appearance is however unreal even as 'bracelet' is an imaginary appearance of gold which alone is real. But,the self is not unreal. It is not a void or nothingness; for It is the self of all, and It is the very self of one who says it is and of one who says (or thinks) It is not! Moreover, its existence can be experienced indirectly just as the existence of camphor can be experienced by its fragrance. It alone is the self of all as consciousness; and it alone is the substance that makes the world-appearance possible.

In that infinite ocean of consciousness, whirlpools known as the three worlds arise spontaneously and naturally, even as whirlpools are caused by the very nature of the running water. Because this consciousness is beyond the reach of the mind
and senses, it seems to be a void; but since it can be known by self-knowledge, it is not a void. On account of the indivisibility of consciousness. I am you and you are me: but the indivisible consciousness itself has become neither I nor you! When the wrong notions of 'you' and 'I' are given up, there arises the awareness that there is neither you, nor I. nor everything; perhaps it alone is everything.

When the mind perceives duality then there is both duality and its counterpart,which is unity. When the mind drops the perception of duality there is neither duality nor unity. When one Is firmly established In the oneness of the infinite consciousness whether he Is quiet or actively engaged In work, then he is considered to be at peace with himself. When one is thus established in the supreme state. That is also known as the state of non-self, or the state of knowledge of the void or emptiness.

 

[Onkara]

Hi Anti-Religion
Sorry, I deleted my origional post to compose something better, thinking you were offline. In anycase, seeing your response I would agree with the posting. My experience is that there is no way for the apparent me to not be the consciousness-being and the bliss which comes with that knowing. It too is beyond experience as it forms both the foundation and the "material" for any experience.

I have come to know It as full, on the empirical level and cannot call It nothing or void without using negation to negate that which exists in IT. Hence, for "me" it is not a void and neither am "I" a void or I would not know my existance. There cannot be two. That what exists in It may not be real, in the sense that it may die, rot or move from my sense perception and this may lead to conclusion of a void as the foundation perhaps. For me IT is still full.

As the above says indirectly, it isn't a question of which term is right or wrong (I know that isn't the point of your OP) so it does imply that there is something different which leads the two schools to their conclusions. I see this to come from the Vedas, and the 5 noble truths, both of which are the movtivators for further investigation which leads to the ultimate goal.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Hi Anti-Religion
Sorry, I deleted my origional post to compose something better, thinking you were offline.

Thats fine.

I have come to know It as full, on the empirical level and cannot call It nothing or void without using negation to negate that which exists in IT. Hence, for "me" it is not a void and neither am "I" a void or I would not know my existance. There cannot be two. That what exists in It may not be real, in the sense that it may die, rot or move from my sense perception and this may lead to conclusion of a void as the foundation perhaps. For me IT is still full.

Yes,I see the self of Buddhism is the lower self which normally we hold as "I".It is probably this "I" that disappears.

As the above says indirectly, it isn't a question of which term is right or wrong (I know that isn't the point of your OP) so it does imply that there is something different which leads the two schools to their conclusions. I see this to come from the Vedas, and the 5 noble truths, both of which are the movtivators for further investigation which leads to the ultimate goal.

I think both these philosophies are exact mirror images of each other.And
this reminds me this saying(from Gospel of Thomas):
"When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."----The reality is best described in combination of opposites
It is clear that the ultimate reality is beyond conceptions like everything or nothing.Still the two schools differ in their approach.Buddhism tries removes the lower or egoistic self(here there is no I and you) and vedanta tries to increase the awareness to reach the same goal(here also there is no I and you ,because "I" is same as "you").But yes,from outside Buddhism may look nihilistic.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Anti-religion,

Is Brahman same as Buddhist void(sunyata)

The description of *brahman* is nothing short of anything but *void* BUT somehow vedantins never spelt it out as such.

Love & rgds

 

[Metempsychosis]

Friend Anti-religion,



The description of *brahman* is nothing short of anything but *void* BUT somehow vedantins never spelt it out as such.

Love & rgds

LOL.NO ,You see in Yoga vasistha,sage Vasistha,uses both Hindu and Buddhist terminologies supports both of them and then negates both of them..


See this:
See even Hinduism has no soul(and emptyness) version(advaita vedanta):

"Nothing whatsoever is born or dies anywhere at any time. It is Brahman alone appearing illusorily in the form of the world."

"O Rama, there is no intellect, no nescience, no mind and no individual soul (jiva). They are all imagined in Brahman."

"Rama, there is neither one jiva nor many nor a conglomerate of jiva. Jiva is only a name! What exists is only Brahman It is full of non-consciousness and(objectless) consciousness, It can only be indicated by negation (not this, not this). He became that which Is beyond description.That state is the void. Brahman, consciousness, the Purusa of (he Samkhya) Isvara of the yogi.Siva,time,Atman or self, non-self and the middle etc. of the mystics holding different views."

"Even as empty, inert nothingness is known as space, mind is empty nothingness.All creation here is the effect of that emptiness — and hence the creation is empty, too."

"There is an emptiness in the empty. Brahman pervades Brahman, the truth shines in the truth and fullness fills fullness. The wise man. though functioning in this world, does nothing, for he seeks nothing."

"If conceptualization (which gives rise to notions of being and non-being) is eliminated, then it is realized that all these jivas (the individual souls), etc. are empty expressions."

"This self can be attained by a hundred ways and means; yet, when It Is attained, nothing has been attained! It is the supreme self; yet It Is nothing."

"The Brahman is empty within and empty without."

Imho,some of the buddhists dont like to any *positive * language and use terminologies like non-being,non-consciousness etc..They(vedantist and buddhist) dont hold grudge against each other but still.....

 

[Derry's Wall's]

Start with Agni(Ignite) for calcination

In Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, he is a lokapâla guarding the Southeast. Jigten lugs kyi bstan bcos: which translates, "Make your hearth in the southeast corner of the house, which is the quarter of Agni". He also plays a central role in most Buddhist homa fire-puja rites. A typical praise to Agni starts "Son of Brahma, Lord of the World, King of fire gods empowered by Takki, Whose supreme wisdom burns all delusion *

Then work your way around the Temple,in love.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I say no,Brahman is not as limiting as the Buddhist VOID I went to.Buddhist VOID is excellent & very enjoyable,as long as you stand up to the monks upon leaving.

The void was "excellent" and "enjoyable"?
lol

 

[zenzero]

Friend Anti-religion,

"Nothing whatsoever is born or dies anywhere at any time. It is Brahman alone appearing illusorily in the form of the world."

"O Rama, there is no intellect, no nescience, no mind and no individual soul (jiva). They are all imagined in Brahman."

"Rama, there is neither one jiva nor many nor a conglomerate of jiva. Jiva is only a name! What exists is only Brahman It is full of non-consciousness and(objectless) consciousness, It can only be indicated by negation (not this, not this). He became that which Is beyond description.That state is the void. Brahman, consciousness, the Purusa of (he Samkhya) Isvara of the yogi.Siva,time,Atman or self, non-self and the middle etc. of the mystics holding different views."

"Even as empty, inert nothingness is known as space, mind is empty nothingness.All creation here is the effect of that emptiness — and hence the creation is empty, too."

"There is an emptiness in the empty. Brahman pervades Brahman, the truth shines in the truth and fullness fills fullness. The wise man. though functioning in this world, does nothing, for he seeks nothing."

"If conceptualization (which gives rise to notions of being and non-being) is eliminated, then it is realized that all these jivas (the individual souls), etc. are empty expressions."

"This self can be attained by a hundred ways and means; yet, when It Is attained, nothing has been attained! It is the supreme self; yet It Is nothing."

"The Brahman is empty within and empty without."

This is exactly what have understanding off BUT never found it in the popular sanatan dharma texts. Thank you for it, and kindly intimate the source on the web to read more on it.
Friend Onkrah had always wanted some pointer in this direction now am sure he too should be convinced that *VOID* is universal and one should meditate on IT; as finally one has to reach there. Yes, the journey may appaer difficult but becomes more challenging besides the awareness will sharpen when one walks a tight rope like the *void* i.e. not holding any thing for support.

Love & rgds

 

[Metempsychosis]

Friend Anti-religion,
This is exactly what have understanding off BUT never found it in the popular sanatan dharma texts. Thank you for it, and kindly intimate the source on the web to read more on it.

I have uploaded it here :
Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire

Friend Onkrah had always wanted some pointer in this direction now am sure he too should be convinced that *VOID* is universal and one should meditate on IT;

Yes mysticism is universal,no religion can take monopoly of that.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Anti-religion,

I have uploaded it here :
Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire

Thanks, BUT what is the file name??

Love & rgds

 

[Derry's Wall's]

The void was "excellent" and "enjoyable"?
lol

Apex Predator status,or KILL ME!....I am realised of VOID,love the VOIDIAN Pantheon.

Norse/Germanic realm of Mara is VOID,all Pantheon of all time unite in VOID(as well as *absolute*)

You have to work upon yourself to be sure you really love yourself,tis all.

..I have been in Buddhist VOID twice,once MA Durgha sent me,last time a guy very,very like Zenzero sent me.

Both times,in great,great love.

Embrace the DARK,Brother!

 

[zenzero]

Friend Derry's Wall's,

.I have been in Buddhist VOID twice

Surely you are blessed by buddha!

May buddha's blessing remain!

Love & rgds

 

[Onkara]

Friend Anti-religion,


Friend Onkrah had always wanted some pointer in this direction now am sure he too should be convinced that *VOID* is universal and one should meditate on IT; as finally one has to reach there. Yes, the journey may appaer difficult but becomes more challenging besides the awareness will sharpen when one walks a tight rope like the *void* i.e. not holding any thing for support.

Love & rgds

Thank for the kind thoughts, Zenzero
Onkarah is not searching, rather exploring that which is. Conceptually things are different, the paths of Vedanta and Bhudda are different and some form of pleasure arises in expansion of undestanding them. However there appears to be no duality any more since one cannot refute that which is without a foundation on which to refute it. How can there be multiple levels or goals in non-duality? Clearly to popose there is would be to remain in duality (no one here has made such a point, "I" raise it for clarity). We all know that duality exists in the mind, as thoughts. Thoughts and the mind are none the less that which we must use to arrive at the ultimate goal, and it appears to me that these paths, call it Vedanta or Buddhism, are also diverse but once one knows that which is then there is no duality to which to compare. As to support, I would enjoy exploring this thought further with you, as the concept of God may only be a concept, but none the less what is it that provides the foundation for thought in buddhist philsophy?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Onkarah,

The original point had been trying to establish if any was that Gautama is from the Sanatan Dharma mould meaning that the environment of his karma was *sanatan Dharma* so even the *VOID* he spoke off, has to be from that; besides since Sanatan Dharma is old as Human existence on earth with thousands of BUDDHAS even before Gautama, there is no way that an obvious aspect like void could have been missed.
However, the point

I would enjoy exploring this thought further with you, as the concept of God may only be a concept, but none the less what is it that provides the foundation for thought in buddhist philsophy?

Yes, surely one has to explore further but that exploration is *ALONE* travelling INWARDS and not pursing *THOUGHTS* but *STILLING* all thoughts or *EMPTYING* all thoughts, one by one through *negation* or *neti, neti* and arriving at that *VOID*.
Yes, there not only all dualities vanish even the *ONE* cannot be taken as *ONE* as there it is completely *VOID* even one is absent.

Love & rgds

 

[Metempsychosis]

Btw zenzero...Is the link working?

 

[Derry's Wall's]

Friend Derry's Wall's,



Surely you are blessed by buddha!

May buddha's blessing remain!

Love & rgds

ty friend Zen Zero,

India is such a huge place..the River Kali was wonderful,the River Gangha just as.

I hang around a big Temple on the side of a lake high up in the Himalaya's,where there is great love which is felt around all pantheon,of all time,throughout the absolute at sub-atomic level(VOID).

In loving glow of perpetual waves of ethereal bliss.

Hail the Goddess.

DW

 

[Onkara]

Yes, there not only all dualities vanish even the *ONE* cannot be taken as *ONE* as there it is completely *VOID* even one is absent.

Love & rgds

Abscence depends on something, does it not? That which it depends is the "void" in Buddhism?