Is Brahman same as Buddhist void(sunyata)

[Rick O'Shez]

Your answer is self defeating. Unborn means eternal. The unborn existed before the phenomena came and passed. The unborn existed before the temporary "state of mind" you refer to as liberation (lol).
Your whole world of ideas are just within the realm of fantasies.

This sounds much more like a Hindu view. You are thinking of the unconditioned as a "thing".

In any case, I assume you're not arguing that sunyata is the same as Brahman?

 

[Ekanta]

This sounds much more like a Hindu view. You are thinking of the unconditioned as a "thing".

Yes, it sounds like the hindu view, or perhaps better expressed, it sounds like truth. If truth is one - realization is one.

From Nirvana sutra:
"[The perfected Bodhisattva] is endowed with perfect Knowing [jnana]. Knowing is perceiving Eternity, Bliss, the Self, and Purity in the Tathagata and that all beings are endowed with the Buddha-dhatu. He sees the two attributes / aspects of dharmas [phenomena]: emptiness and non-emptiness; eternity and impermanence; bliss and non-bliss; the Self and the non-Self; purity and impurity...".

"Liberation is Permanent, Stable and Eternal... That which is Liberation is an unfabricated Dhatu [Element], and that is the Tathagata"
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/selectedextracts1j.htm

The perfected Bodhisattva sees the two aspects... You see only ONE.
I dont have the burden of proof to explain away that the buddha-nature is eternal, unborn, and exists. YOU have that burden of proof.

Edited: One the other hand, you have the burden of proof to also explain how a state of a temporary mind can be the eternal unborn. How would it survive when the mind ceases to exist? It becomes totally illogical and absurd.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I dont have the burden of proof to explain away that the buddha-nature is eternal, unborn, and exists. YOU have that burden of proof.

No, I don't actually. In the Mahayana the usual understanding of buddha-nature is the potential for enlightenment, not some mystical thingy "out there".

But anyway, if buddha-nature is eternal, what happens when a Buddha dies?

 

[Ekanta]

No, I don't actually. In the Mahayana buddha-nature is the potential for enlightenment, not some mystical thingy.

But anyway, if buddha-nature is eternal, what happens when a Buddha dies?

Its not "if", cant you read? It says buddha-nature is eternal!
And to answer your question...
To the eternal aspect, nothing happens.
To the non-eternal aspect...it dies.

 

[Ekanta]

Now answer me this Spiny:
Explain how a state of a temporary mind can be the eternal unborn. How would it survive when the mind ceases to exist? How can it be the eternal nirvana.

 

[crossfire]

Your answer is self defeating. Unborn means eternal. The unborn existed before the phenomena came and passed. The unborn existed before the temporary "state of mind" you refer to as liberation (lol).
Your whole world of ideas are just within the realm of fantasies.

Ajāta means not jāta. Here is the definition of jāta from the Pali Text Society:

Jāta

Jāta [pp. of janati (janeti), cp. Lat. (g)nātus, Goth. kunds; also Gr. (kasi/ -- ) gnhto/s, Ohg. knabo] 1. As adj. -- noun: (a) born, grown, arisen, produced (=nibbatta pātubhūta Nd2 256) Sn 576 (jātānaŋ maccānaŋ niccaŋ maraṇato bhayaŋ); jātena maccena kattabbaŋ kusalaŋ bahuŋ Dh 53=Miln 333; yakkhinī jātâsi (born a G.) J vi.337; rukkho j. J i.222; latā jātā Dh 340; gāmanissandhena jātāni sūpeyya -- paṇṇāni Vism 250. -- (n.) he who or that which is born: jātassa maraṇaŋ hoti Sn 742; jātassa jarā paññāyissati J i.59; jātaŋ+bhūtaŋ (opp. ajātaŋ abhūtaŋ) It 37. -- (b) "genuine," i.e. natural, true, good, sound (cp. kata, bhūta, taccha& opp. ajāta like akata, abhūta): see cpds. -- 2. As predicate, often in sense of a finite verb (cp. gata):
-- 281 --
born, grown (or was born, grew); become; occurred, happened Sn 683 (Bodhisatto hitasukhatāya jāto); bhayaŋ jātaŋ (arose) Sn 207; vivādā jātā Sn 828; ekadivase j. (were born on the same day) J iii.391; aphāsukaŋ jātaŋ (has occurred J i.291. -- So in loc. abs. jāte (jātamhi) "when . . . has arisen, when there is . . .," e. g. atthamhi Vin i.350=M iii.154=Dh 331; vādamhi Sn 832; oghe Sn 1092; kahāpaṇesu jātesu J i.121. -- 3. ˚jāta (nt.) characteristic; pada˚ pedal character S i.86; anga˚ the sexual organ Vin i.191; as adj. having become . . . (=bhūta); being like or behaving as, of the kind of . . ., sometimes to be rendered by an adj. or a pp. implied in the noun: cuṇṇakajātāni aṭṭhikāni (=cuṇṇayitāni) M iii.92; jālakajāta in bud A iv.117; chandajāta=chandika Sn 767; sujāta Sn 548 (well -- born, i. e. auspicious, blessed, happy); pītisomanassa˚ joyful & glad Sn p. 94; J i.60, etc.; gandhajāta a kind of perfume (see gandha). Often untranslatable: lābhappatto jāto J iii.126; vināsa -- ppaccayo jāto J i.256. -- 4. a Jātaka or Buddhist birth story DhA i.34.
-- āmaṇḍa the (wild) castor oil plant VvA 10; -- ovaraka the inner chamber where he was born VvA 158; J i.391 (so read for jāto varake). -- kamma the (soothsaying) ceremony connected w. birth, in ˚ŋ karoti to set the horoscope PvA 198 (=nakkhatta -- yogaŋ uggaṇhāti); -- divasa the day of birth, birthday J iii.391; iv.38; -- mangala birth festival, i. e. the feast held on the birth of a child DhA ii.86; -- rūpa "sterling," pure metal, i. e. gold (in its natural state, before worked, cp. jambonada). In its relation to suvaṇṇa (worked gold) it is stated to be suvaṇṇavaṇṇo (i. e. the brightcoloured metal: VvA 9; DhA iv.32: suvaṇṇo jātarūpo); at DA i.78 it is expld by suvaṇṇa only & at Vin iii.238 it is said to be the colour of the Buddha: j. Satthu -- vaṇṇa. At A i.253 it is represented as the material for the suvaṇṇakāra (the "white" -- smith as opp. to "black" -- smith). -- Combd w. hirañña Pv ii.75; very freq. w. rajata (silver), in the prohibition of accepting gold & silver (D i.5)≈ as well as in other connections, e. g. Vin i.245; ii.294 sq.; S i.71, 95; iv.326 (the moral dangers of "money": yassa jātarūpa -- rajataŋ kappati pañca pi tassa kāmaguṇā kappanti); v.353, 407; Dhs 617. -- Other passages illustr. the use & valuation of j. are S ii.234 (˚paripūra); v.92 (upakkilesā); A i.210 (id.); iii.16 (id.); -- S i.93, 117; M i.38; A i.215; iii.38; iv.199, 281; v.290; J ii.296; iv.102; -- veda [cp. Vedic jātaveda=Agni] fire S i.168; Sn 462 (kaṭṭhā jāyati j.) Ud 93; J i.214; ii.326= iv.471; v.326; vi.204, 578; Vism 171; DA i.226; DhA i.44 (nirindhana, without fuel); -- ssara a natural pond or lake Vin i.111; J i.470; ii.57.​

Nothing here about ajāta meaning "eternal."

 

[Rick O'Shez]

And to answer your question...
To the eternal aspect, nothing happens.

So what does that mean? What is this "eternal aspect" exactly, and what happens to it when a Buddha dies? Does it merge with the great buddha-nature in the sky? But that would be like Advaita....hmmm.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Now answer me this Spiny:
Explain how a state of a temporary mind can be the eternal unborn. How would it survive when the mind ceases to exist? How can it be the eternal nirvana.

You tell me. It only makes sense if you think of nirvana as some kind of thing "out there", which is not how it is viewed in most Buddhist schools.

Maybe it's just a bad translation of the Nirvana Sutra? It would be interesting to look at some alternative translations, the link you posted looks rather partisan, like somebody is on a mission to prove that the rest of those foolish Mahayanists have got it all wrong.

It's a little reminiscent of the way some people try to smuggle an atman or "true self" into Theravada teachings. It's like they really can't cope with the full implications of anatta. Maybe it's the same in the Mahayana, some people just can't cope with the full implications of sunyata?

 

[crossfire]

Now answer me this Spiny:
Explain how a state of a temporary mind can be the eternal unborn. How would it survive when the mind ceases to exist? How can it be the eternal nirvana.

Let me ask you this: where was this notion of "eternal" born from? hmm? {Pun intended, especially in the context of the Nibbana Sutta that you lifted the term "unborn" {ajātam} from?}

 

[Ekanta]

@Spiny Norman : So you cant answer the question Spiny?
If nirvana is eternal... how can it be achieved by a temporary state of mind... the very same mind that is impermanent and will ceases to exist? How can it be the eternal nirvana? (this question is for all buddhists who think everything is impermenent)

@crossfire : Looks quite born to be... "1. As adj. -- noun: (a) born, grown, arisen, produced", in some contexts it might get another connotation...

But why even bother? From nirvana sutra we clearly see that:
“The True Self is the Tathāgata-dhātu [Buddha-nature]. You should know that all beings do have it, but it is not apparent, since those beings are enveloped by immeasurable kleśas [mental and moral afflictions) ….”
“The Self (ātman) is reality (tattva), the Self is permanent (nitya), the Self is virtue (guṇa), the Self is eternal (śāśvatā), the Self is stable (dhruva), the Self is peace (siva).
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/theselfatman.htm

 

[Rick O'Shez]

@Spiny Norman : So you cant answer the question Spiny?

I am waiting for answers to several questions I have posed to you. What exactly is the "eternal element" you refer to, and what happens to it when a Buddha dies? How do you know that nirvana is eternal, I mean apart from what it says in a possibly dubious translation of one sutra.
Is nirvana some kind of absolute thingy "out there" which we connect with or access, and if so wouldn't that be Advaita?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

“The Self (ātman) is reality (tattva), the Self is permanent (nitya), the Self is virtue (guṇa), the Self is eternal (śāśvatā), the Self is stable (dhruva), the Self is peace (siva).
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/theselfatman.htm

How did "atman" worm it's way in here? This sounds much more like Advaita than Buddhism.

 

[crossfire]

How did "atman" worm it's way in here? This sounds much more like Advaita than Buddhism.

Gotta grasp that water snake properly or you'll get bit. (Pardon the pun.)

 

[Ekanta]

I have answered all of your questions (but will repeat it):

1. "What exactly is the "eternal element" you refer to":
“The True Self is the Tathāgata-dhātu [Buddha-nature]. You should know that all beings do have it, but it is not apparent, since those beings are enveloped by immeasurable kleśas [mental and moral afflictions) ….”
“The Self (ātman) is reality (tattva), the Self is permanent (nitya), the Self is virtue (guṇa), the Self is eternal (śāśvatā), the Self is stable (dhruva), the Self is peace (siva).

2. "what happens to it when a Buddha dies?":
To the eternal aspect, nothing happens.
To the non-eternal aspect...it dies.

3. "How do you know that nirvana is eternal, I mean apart from what it says in a possibly dubious translation of one sutra."
Try this one:
"Nibbana is a Dhamma which is "unborn, unoriginated, uncreated and unformed." Hence, it is eternal (Dhuva), desirable (Subha),and happy (Sukha)."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/narada/nutshell.html#ch10

4. Is nirvana a thingy "out there" which we connect with, and if so wouldn't that be Advaita?
See nr 1, as to what it is.
Of course its same as advaita. Since truth is one - realization is one.

Now its your turn Spiny:
If nirvana is eternal... how can it be achieved by a temporary state of mind... the very same mind that is impermanent and will ceases to exist? How can it be the eternal nirvana?

 

[Ekanta]

In Buddhism the unconditioned refers to the liberated state of mind. It is not a thing or a place, and it is definitely not Brahman or God.

It cant be a state of mind, its denied by Buddha himself (pali canon):

"There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering."
Nibbāna Sutta: Parinibbana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.irel.html

 

[Ekanta]

Ud 8.3

PTS:Ud 80

Nibbāna Sutta: Parinibbana (3)

There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.03.irel.html


Ud 8.1

PTS:Ud 80

Nibbāna Sutta: Parinibbana (1)

There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.irel.html

 

[Ekanta]

How did "atman" worm it's way in here?

From Nirvana sutra:
"[The perfected Bodhisattva] is endowed with perfect Knowing [jnana]...He sees the two attributes ... the Self and the non-Self... .".
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/selectedextracts1j.htm

Gotta grasp that water snake properly or you'll get bit. (Pardon the pun.)

From Nirvana sutra:
"When I have taught non-Self, fools uphold the teaching that there is no Self. The wise know that such is conventional speech, and they are free from doubts" (Pardon the pun.)
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/selectedextracts1d.htm

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It cant be a state of mind, its denied by Buddha himself (pali canon):
"There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering."
Nibbāna Sutta: Parinibbana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.irel.html

Where else can Nibbana be experienced but in the mind? In this passage "base" refers to states of mind, which here includes the meditative states of the four formless jhanas. What else could a "base" be? Something weird floating around in another dimension? What exactly?

In any case this passage is referring to the end of mental fermentations and the end of conceptions based on self-view, see MN1. https://suttacentral.net/en/mn1

Note that in the suttas the standard definition of Nibbana is the cessation of craving, aversion and ignorance, ie the cessation of unskillfull mental states.

But you still haven't answered my questions:
What exactly is the "eternal aspect" you referred to?
What happens to this "eternal aspect" when a Buddha dies? Does it go somewhere?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Gotta grasp that water snake properly or you'll get bit. (Pardon the pun.)

I'm more worried about sock puppets.

 

[Akshara]

How do you know that ?.

Because, with all due respect, some people study philosophical concepts and understand them according to their religious context.