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Is Brahman same as Buddhist void(sunyata)

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I still don't get "beyond the mind". Isn't everything experienced in the mind? And if not, where is it experienced?
Yes everything is experienced through the mind, and that includes what is beyond the mind, when one is in deep silence where the mind is not active there can be a sense of what is beyond the mind. When this sense of what is beyond the mind is experienced with the mind not so active, there is a taste of what is beyond the mind, this is known as Enlightenment.

In this experience of Enlightenment one feels that one is all there is, there is no separation, one realizes that the mind body organism is just a puppet played by Consciousness, this experience or Self-realization cannot be conceptualized, you have to experience it for yourself, through your Self.
 

Ekanta

om sai ram
Deathless is another word for Nibbana, and Nibbana is a living experience.

But you still haven't answered my questions:
You're claiming that nirvana continues beyond death. But what does that even mean? How is that possible? Are you saying that a Buddha goes to heaven when he dies, or some portion of his consciousness floats off into another dimension or something? What exactly are you saying?

Stop just dumping in sutta quotes, answer the questions I have put to you.
Sorry, but I dont think you have the capacity to understand.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
This thread makes me so glad I don't get into conversations like this supporting ancients ideas as if they were representative of reality.
 

Ekanta

om sai ram
It's also not Sunyata, (reference to thread title) otherwise Buddha would have called it such.
From dhammapada, pali canon
92.Those who do not accumulate and are wise regarding food, whose object is the Void (suññatā), the Unconditioned Freedom (animitta) — their track cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.
93.He whose cankers are destroyed and who is not attached to food, whose object is the Void (suññatā), the Unconditioned Freedom (animitta) — his path cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.07.budd.html

Edited:
food: suggests the fuel that feeds the fire (we fuel and feed our senses/mind)
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
From dhammapada, pali canon
92.Those who do not accumulate and are wise regarding food, whose object is the Void (suññatā), the Unconditioned Freedom (animitta) — their track cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.
93.He whose cankers are destroyed and who is not attached to food, whose object is the Void (suññatā), the Unconditioned Freedom (animitta) — his path cannot be traced, like that of birds in the air.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.07.budd.html

Edited:
food: suggests the fuel that feeds the fire (we fuel and feed our senses/mind)
Very good. Now we are getting somewhere. :)
This has every indication of nibbana.

Brahman might be a different story, however.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Since nibbana is a living experience then yes, I assume that experience ceases at death. I can't recall anything from the suttas which talks about about nirvana continuing beyond death. And surely everything is experienced in the mind - where else would nibbana be experienced?

Nibbana is nitya. Experiences are anitya.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Sorry, but I dont think you have the capacity to understand.

I don't think you have the capacity to answer questions. You keep making bland assertions about Nibbana being "eternal" but you seem to have no idea what that actually means.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
This thread makes me so glad I don't get into conversations like this supporting ancients ideas as if they were representative of reality.

Part of the problem is that people are good at regurgitating ancient teachings but not so good at explaining what they actually mean.

I still haven't seen anyone demonstrate that Brahman is the same as sunyata though. ;)
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The thread might actually come to terms if one realises the actual scope of Brahman or Sunyata only reaches as far as the thought itself does, and lasts for just as long.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
The thread might actually come to terms if one realises the actual scope of Brahman or Sunyata only reaches as far as the thought itself does, and lasts for just as long.

Heresy, these are all absolute and eternal and they don't need our puny human minds to experience them! :p

But seriously, it seems there are people who want to make Buddhism a school of Advaita, and Nirvana a synonym for Brahman. Oh well.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Why are you trying to attach sense to Nibbana?

Sorry but I don't understand your response or how it relates to what I said.

You said: "Nibbana is nitya. Experiences are anitya."
I said: "Are you saying that Nibbana isn't experienced? That doesn't make sense."

Maybe you could respond to what I actually said?
 

Ekanta

om sai ram
Heresy, these are all absolute and eternal and they don't need our puny human minds to experience them! :p
The 4 formless jhānas (meditations) are includes in this quote. They depend on the mind, but its not the base/sphere of nirvana:
There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air;
1. no base consisting of the infinity of space [ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ],
2. no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness [viññānañcāyatanaṃ],
3. no base consisting of nothingness [ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ],
4. no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception [nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ];
neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.irel.html

What comes after is “cessation of feeling & perception” or “nirodha-samāpatti”. Here all mental processes have stopped. The mind doesn’t work anymore. This is the base/sphere of nirvana. Beyond the (impermanent) mind.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the
5. cessation of feeling & perception [saññā-vedayita-nirodha] [nirodha-samāpatti].
Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him
.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html

So, if all mental processes have stopped and the mind doesn’t work anymore, how is it that we still need the mind to experience it? The fact seems to be the opposite. Nirvana exists when the mind is stopped (nirodha). That which is birthless and deathless (nirvana) then exists in itself, clearly independent of the mind.

The Theravada classic commentary (Visuddhimagga by Buddhaghosa) says:
With regard to the difference existing between the monk abiding in this state of extinction on the one hand, and a dead person on the other hand, M 43 says:
· "In him who is dead, and whose life has come to an end, the bodily (in-and-out breathing), verbal (thought-conception and discursive thinking), and mental functions (s.sankhāra,2) have become suspended and come to a standstill, life is exhausted, the vital heat extinguished, the faculties are destroyed.
· Also in the monk who has reached 'extinction of perception and feeling'(saññā-vedayita-nirodha),the bodily, verbal and mental functions have been suspended and come to a standstill, but life is not exhausted, the vital heat not extinguished, and the faculties are not destroyed."
For details, see Vis.M. XXIII; for texts s. Path 206.
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nirodha_samaapatti.htm

We can also note that “cessation of feeling & perception” / “nirodha-samāpatti” (buddhism) is identical with nirvikalpa-samādhi / nirodha-samādhi (hinduism).

As we see in yoga sutras:
1.2. Yoga is inhibition [nirodha] of the mental processes.
1.3. Then the Seer is established in his own nature.
1.4. Otherwise, it conforms itself to the mental process.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html
So, if all mental processes have stopped and the mind doesn’t work anymore, how is it that we still need the mind to experience it?

<sigh> Again you are just dumping in sutta quotes, but you have no idea what they actually mean. Read again what the first line says above. He's gone through the various meditative states and emerges from them mindfully, looking back on those states with detachment. Does that sound like somebody without a working mind?! Of course not, it's a silly idea.
And in case you hadn't realised, cessation of feeling & perception is another meditative state.

So, instead of quoting stuff from Access to Insight which you clearly don't understand, how about answering some of my questions:

1. You've claimed that Nibbana is "eternal" but what does actually mean? Explain the practicalities to me. What happens to what your so-called "eternal aspect" of a Buddha when he dies? Does a Buddha's Nibbana element merge with the great Nibbana in the sky? Does it go to Heaven or another dimension? What exactly?

2. How can sunyata, an expression of conditionality, be equated to Brahman, an absolute?
 
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