Is Brahman same as Buddhist void(sunyata)

[Ekanta]

<sigh> Again you are just dumping in sutta quotes...

Yes, I quote suttas, not fantasies like you.

 

[Ekanta]

cessation of feeling & perception is another meditative state

Of course it is, thats why a dead person have it also. Your logic is brilliant!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Of course it is, thats why a dead person have it also. Your logic is brilliant!

You really are clueless about the suttas. It's just saying that a person in a meditative state is not the same as somebody who is dead. Instead of randomly dumping in sutta quotes you need to study them and understand what they actually mean.

And you still haven't answered my questions, which again demonstrates your complete lack of understanding. Oh well.

 

[crossfire]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the
5. cessation of feeling & perception [saññā-vedayita-nirodha] [nirodha-samāpatti].
Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

There is no jhana associated with this state: no rapture, no pleasure, no joy, no equinimity, which might be referred to as cessation of feeling and perception, {since that is what the jhana cycle consists of} and hence, no further escape.

 

[Ekanta]

There is no jhana associated with this state: no rapture, no pleasure, no joy, no equinimity, which might be referred to as cessation of feeling and perception, {since that is what the jhana cycle consists of} and hence, no further escape.

Etaṃ santaṃ, etaṃ paṇītaṃ, yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ.

This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html

Then why is it peace and exquisite?

 

[atanu]

Are you saying that Nibbana isn't experienced? That doesn't make sense.

Okay. Who senses Nibbabna when there are no objects or forms?

I repeat. Nibbana is nitya. Experiences come and go (anitya).

 

[atanu]

There is no jhana associated with this state: no rapture, no pleasure, no joy, no equinimity, which might be referred to as cessation of feeling and perception, {since that is what the jhana cycle consists of} and hence, no further escape.

With this, I will not aim for Nibbana. Who would wish to be in a state when even the exquisite unbroken (nitya) peace will not be known?

 

[atanu]

IMO, with all religions that have an evangelism built in, there is a problem of loss of the core understanding. IMO, the various concepts of Buddhist Sunyata are nothing but vague -- at least if we go by the explanations in RF.

OTOH, Brahman is my and everyone's inner most nature and it is the existence, awareness and bliss. It is to be known in order to attain moksha.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

OTOH, Brahman is my and everyone's inner most nature and it is the existence, awareness and bliss. It is to be known in order to attain moksha.

Well, that's your belief and opinion, but it has nothing to do with Buddhist teachings. You are trying to view Buddhist teachings through a Hindu lens, which means you will inevitably miss the point.

And you haven't demonstrated that sunyata is the same as Brahman.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I repeat. Nibbana is nitya. Experiences come and go (anitya).

So you are saying that Nibbana isn't an experience? What does that actually mean?

It's clear from the suttas that an Arahant still has the experience of the five aggregates. An Arahant still gets ill and feels pain, and so on. The difference for an Arahant is the absence of craving, aversion and delusion, which is the classic description of Nibbana in the suttas.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Then why is it peace and exquisite?

The monk is still percipient. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.006.than.html

See MN1, which explains that it's conceiving around self-view which is the obstacle to be overcome. https://suttacentral.net/en/mn1 Suttas like this confirm that Nibbana is all about insight. That is why mindfulness is the path to the Deathless ( Nibbana ).

 

[crossfire]

I see how the jhanas demonstrate how consciousness "lands" upon various forms and formless realms in delight, only to be reborn there. Beyond the jhanas would then be the realm beyond rebirth, where consciousness doesn't land.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Beyond the jhanas would then be the realm beyond rebirth, where consciousness doesn't land.

What do you think that means, practically speaking?

 

[crossfire]

What do you think that means, practically speaking?

Practically speaking, you know this as the realm where rebirth does not occur. What you do with that knowledge is up to you, since you are liberated from the mechanistic cycle of rebirth.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Practically speaking, you know this as the realm where rebirth does not occur. What you do with that knowledge is up to you, since you are liberated from the mechanistic cycle of rebirth.

Because there is no longer the craving for further becoming?

 

[crossfire]

Because there is no longer the craving for further becoming?

There is no longer ignorance of the mechanisms involved. How the mechanisms work and how this gives rise to that are all understood. It would be possible to purposefully navigate through the system, or not. Free will, liberation, etc.

 

[Ekanta]

I see how the jhanas demonstrate how consciousness "lands" upon various forms and formless realms in delight, only to be reborn there. Beyond the jhanas would then be the realm beyond rebirth, where consciousness doesn't land.

I suppose by "consiousness" you mean one of the skandhas or at least depending on the skandhas somehow (otherwise you have to admit that consciousness is independent of skandhas).
But we have a smal problem. The skandhas cant travel to that place, so how would there be conscioussness at all (even if it doesnt land)?
The only clue we have is cessation of perception & feeling (saññā-vedayita-nirodha), where the mind has stop functioning. That realm is reached after the 4th jhana and is not included in the count of what nirvana is not.

Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search
Then again the monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception [fourth jhana], enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling (saññā-vedayita-nirodha). And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html

How the Blessed One Passed into Nibbana
Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The only clue we have is cessation of perception & feeling (saññā-vedayita-nirodha), where the mind has stop functioning. That realm is reached after the 4th jhana and is not included in the count of what nirvana is not.

Cessation of perception of feeling is a temporary state. While the Arahant is still alive, he still experiences the five aggregates, but they do not burn with the fires of passion, aversion, or delusion. His five sense faculties remain unimpaired, so he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and still feels pleasure and pain. In the suttas this is called the Nibbana-element with residue left. The Nibbana-element with no residue left represents Pari-Nibbana, the death of the Arahant.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

How the Blessed One Passed into Nibbana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html

Read the second line here and tell me what you think it means.

"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."[59]

 

[Ekanta]

Cessation of perception of feeling is a temporary state. While the Arahant is still alive, he still experiences the five aggregates, but they do not burn with the fires of passion, aversion, or delusion. His five sense faculties remain unimpaired, so he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and still feels pleasure and pain. In the suttas this is called the Nibbana-element with residue left. The Nibbana-element with no residue left represents Pari-Nibbana, the death of the Arahant.

Cessation of perception & feeling is not a state of the mind, since the mind has stopped working. It does not depend on the temporary mind!
Then you go on to talk about "While the Arahant is still alive, he still experiences the five aggregates"... that is another topic, then he has come out of cessation of perception & feeling! Your "temporary Cessation of perception & feeling" is not the temporariness of the state, its the going in and out of the state (thats temporary).