Is Brahman same as Buddhist void(sunyata)

[crossfire]

I suppose by "consiousness" you mean one of the skandhas or at least depending on the skandhas somehow (otherwise you have to admit that consciousness is independent of skandhas).
But we have a smal problem. The skandhas cant travel to that place, so how would there be conscioussness at all (even if it doesnt land)?
The only clue we have is cessation of perception & feeling (saññā-vedayita-nirodha), where the mind has stop functioning. That realm is reached after the 4th jhana and is not included in the count of what nirvana is not.

We've already gone over the suttas describing how it can be perceived via negation, and that a monk in this state can still recognize and perceive this state for what it is. Here is one such sutta:

Samadhi Sutta: Concentration
Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, Ananda, he could..."
Continued at link​

 

[Ekanta]

Read the second line here and tell me what you think it means.
"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."[59]

He was not dead yet?
Anyway, this is several verses before he actually died. Notice that he repeats the process of going through stages several times.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

He was not dead yet?
Anyway, this is several verses before he actually died. Notice that he repeats the process of going through stages several times.

The point is that cessation of perception and feeling is a temporary state, it's sometimes referred to as the 9th jhana. As I explained above the Arahant still experiences the 5 aggregates, he still has working senses and a working mind.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

We've already gone over the suttas describing how it can be perceived via negation, and that a monk in this state can still recognize and perceive this state for what it is.

The discussion in this thread has been very lop-sided, focussing exclusively on jhana and neglecting insight.
In Theravada both tranquillity and insight are important.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html

The question of whether jhana is even necessary for awakening is somewhat contentious in Theravada circles, but probably it's best if we don't go down that rabbit hole here.

 

[Ekanta]

"Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.
The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment.
The property of the cessation of feeling & perception (saññā-vedayita-nirodha) is to be reached as a cessation attainment (nirodha-samāpatti)."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn14/sn14.011.than.html

I was gonna give a longer answer, but then I realized... it takes too long time and will be forgotten 5 minutes after so why bother?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

"Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.
The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment.
The property of the cessation of feeling & perception (saññā-vedayita-nirodha) is to be reached as a cessation attainment (nirodha-samāpatti)."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn14/sn14.011.than.html
I was gonna give a longer answer, but then I realized... it takes too long time and will be forgotten 5 minutes after so why bother?

I don't know what point you're trying to make here. The fact remains that cessation of feeling and perception is a temporary meditative state. The Arahant still experiences the aggregates, including feeling and perception, he still experiences pleasure and pain but feels them detached ( see the Arrow Sutta ). The Arahant still has working senses and still has a working mind. What's fundamentally different for an Arahant is the absence of craving, aversion and delusion.

 

[crossfire]

The discussion in this thread has been very lop-sided, focussing exclusively on jhana and neglecting insight.
In Theravada both tranquillity and insight are important.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html

The question of whether jhana is even necessary for awakening is somewhat contentious in Theravada circles, but probably it's best if we don't go down that rabbit hole here.

What good is jhana if you don't learn anything from it?

 

[crossfire]

"Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.

Yep.

The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment.

Being dependent upon the dimension of nothingness, you know it is not the same as the dimension of nothingness, but the experience is ambiguous as to whether you are perceiving nothing or not perceiving anything. (But you know it is not the same as the dimension of nothingness, so you can therefore infer that there are no more aggregates to be perceived.)

The property of the cessation of feeling & perception (saññā-vedayita-nirodha) is to be reached as a cessation attainment (nirodha-samāpatti)."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn14/sn14.011.than.html

I was gonna give a longer answer, but then I realized... it takes too long time and will be forgotten 5 minutes after so why bother?

When you know there are no more aggregates to be perceived, nor any formless ayatana to be perceived, you can let go of (cease) looking for them/ferreting them out.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What good is jhana if you don't learn anything from it?

My main learning point from jhana experience is that more refined states of mind are possible and desirable, though of course these meditative experiences are always temporary.

It does appear that insight is the basis for lasting change.

 

[crossfire]

My main learning point from jhana experience is that more refined states of mind are possible and desirable, though of course these meditative experiences are always temporary.

It does appear that insight is the basis for lasting change.

Jhana seems to be a way of my unconscious mind getting the attention of my conscious mind when meditating--"look at this! {station for consciousness to land upon} and know it for what it is!"

 

[crossfire]

Jhana seems to be a way of my unconscious mind getting the attention of my conscious mind when meditating--"look at this! {station for consciousness to land upon} and know it for what it is!"

or it could just be the actual mechanisms for how consciousness lands upon stations, and I'm only noticing them since I'm meditating and withdrawn from distractions. Either way, I gain conscious knowledge of the station/base/ayatana.

 

[atanu]

Well, that's your belief and opinion, but it has nothing to do with Buddhist teachings. You are trying to view Buddhist teachings through a Hindu lens, which means you will inevitably miss the point.

Yes. And what you infer is your belief.

And you haven't demonstrated that sunyata is the same as Brahman.

I have no interest to do that.

 

[atanu]

So you are saying that Nibbana isn't an experience? What does that actually mean?
.

Are you then saying that nibbana is anitya?

Actually I am not arguing with you. I am asking for clarification. Nibbana is unborn, unformed, and uncreated and that whereby the release is discerned.

I am asking, in a formless and unborn realm, what kind of vijnana (experience) will be there and for whom?

 

[crossfire]

Are you then saying that nibbana is anitya?

Actually I am not arguing with you. I am asking for clarification. Nibbana is unborn, unformed, and uncreated and that whereby the release is discerned.

I am asking, in a formless and unborn realm, what kind of vijnana (experience) will be there and for whom?

Since the being recognizing nibbana is impermanent and subject to change, then the aggregates will eventually arise again while the being is still alive. That being, however will have gained insight or panna/prajna in regards to the aggregates, the formless ayatanas, and nibbana.

 

[atanu]

Since the being recognizing nibbana is impermanent and subject to change, then the aggregates will eventually arise again while the being is still alive. That being, however will have gained insight or panna/prajna in regards to the aggregates, the formless ayatanas, and nibbana.

How the so-called being that is born-created-formed discern nibbana that isn't formed, created, unborn?

For example, a formed seer cannot but render the whole seen into a formed object and that will no more be the nibbana realm.

The unborn, uncreated, unformed cannot brook a formed and created seer second to it without veiling formless nibbana with mental forms.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Nibbana is unborn, unformed, and uncreated and that whereby the release is discerned. I am asking, in a formless and unborn realm, what kind of vijnana (experience) will be there and for whom?

Why are you assuming Nibbana is a realm? Nibbana is a living experience, the Arahant doesn't disappear somewhere, he continues to experience the aggregates, he continues to feel pleasure and pain.

As for the Arahant's consciousness, see Note 9 for MN49 here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html

 

[crossfire]

How the so-called being that is born-created-formed discern nibbana that isn't formed, created, unborn?

For example, a formed seer cannot but render the whole seen into a formed object and that will no more be the nibbana realm.

The unborn, uncreated, unformed cannot brook a formed and created seer second to it without veiling formless nibbana with mental forms.

[satire] Well heck, we might as well not look for a way out of the suffering of samsara then, since you have just deemed it impossible. [/satire]

 

[atanu]

[satire] Well heck, we might as well not look for a way out of the suffering of samsara then, since you have just deemed it impossible. [/satire]

But nibbana is indeed the way out of suffering and it is said to be nitya, uncreated, unformed, and unborn.

If I am allowed to paraphrase it I will say that another way of saying it may be "Know thyself ..... as you are .... as Nibbana itself."

 

[Rick O'Shez]

..uncreated, unformed, and unborn.

Instead of just parroting, why don't you tell us what you think those words actually mean, practically speaking?

Are you trying to prove that Nibbana is really Brahman? What is your agenda here?

 

[crossfire]

But nibbana is indeed the way out of suffering and it is said to be nitya, uncreated, unformed, and unborn.

If I am allowed to paraphrase it I will say that another way of saying it may be "Know thyself ..... as you are .... as Nibbana itself."

Disagree. I don't identify self with any one state of mind or experience, or lack thereof. (Your mileage may vary)