Is buying meat compatible with Buddhist ethics?

[ratikala]

namaste

Don't you care about plants?

yes, I care very much about plants too but as animals are considered sentient my first choice is to refrain from causing distress to fellow Sentient beings , .....

 

[buddhist]

namaste
yes, I care very much about plants too but as animals are considered sentient my first choice is to refrain from causing distress to fellow Sentient beings , .....

If you've read the link I've provided, there is some evidence that plants might also be sentient.

Anjali.

 

[Chakra]

If you've read the link I've provided, there is some evidence that plants might also be sentient.

Anjali.

Reacting to stimuli does not mean that they are sentient. They can be intelligent, alive, etc, but not necessarily sentient. Why, even computers and robots exhibit the same symptoms talked about in your article.

I would also like to point out that veganism still saves more plants, because the meat-industry takes 50% of our crops and feeds them to animals, which are then slaughtered for meat-eaters. Vegans save more plants and animals.

 

[Chakra]

@Osal , I, for some reason, cannot access the 9th page of this thread, and as a result I cannot view your reply post. Do you think you could post it again here?

 

[buddhist]

Reacting to stimuli does not mean that they are sentient. They can be intelligent, alive, etc, but not necessarily sentient. Why, even computers and robots exhibit the same symptoms talked about in your article.

Is your criteria any different regarding animal sentience?

I would also like to point out that veganism still saves more plants, because the meat-industry takes 50% of our crops and feeds them to animals, which are then slaughtered for meat-eaters. Vegans save more plants and animals.

Not eating saves even more, then.

I suggest that plants and animals understand that they will often be used as food. My "spin" on that is that perhaps they might actually be willing to perform such a sacrifice to the ariya sangha in the hopes that they will reincarnate as a human for the chance at nibbana as a result of such a self-sacrifice. As I understand it, if I remember correctly, in the Jataka tales regarding the Buddha's past lives, he was an animal who was willing to sacrifice himself to the chance to achieve much more positive kamma.

 

[Osal]

namaste , ....



Thank you , ...yes ,If you hadnt answerd this l would have answered the exact same to @Osal ji , .....further more this intensive farming that Osal ji coments upon is exasabated by the desires of the meet industry for its execive demands for grain both to feed cattle and poultry , ...however if we simply needed to grow enough grain to feed a human population we would not have to rely so heavily on chemical firtilisers because we would not have to place such heavy demands on the soil , .....as unfortunatly it is only due to our modern methods of intensive farming that the soils have become so depeated and are in need of chemical intervention to maintain the excessively high yealds demanded by cattle and poltry farming .



it is very nice of these guys to care about one endangered species , ...that is one step in the right direction however Vegetarians and Vegans regard all animal life as equaly entitled to live a natural life free from human interference , .....



prehaps this is because vegetarians and vegans dont nececarily act as one unified group they just get on with their lives trying to limit all manner of harm both on an enviromental level and on the level of animal rights , ...many many vegetarians and vegans here are very actively behind the Organic movements that advocate the abolition of chemical fertilisers and chemical insecticides , .....I think this is called a multi lateral approach , as it takes all manner of enviromentaly harmfull practices into considderation , ...now this to me is truely practicing 'Right lntention' , 'Right Action' and 'Right Livlihood' , .......

Sorry, my dear, but it doesnt. It doesnt because it doesnt comply with tht rule of threefold puriy. Without that, its nothing but ego driven delusion. DU people don't run around, thumping their chests demanding that others follow. No, they take what they believe, put their money where their mouth is and get the damned job done. The results speak for them selves.

Last i saw there was still a lot of chemical fertilizers and pesticides being used and a lot more ducks in the sky. I can ride my bike 2 miles to the river and see a dozen different duck species, right now. Wait a couple months and that number will double. You can thank DU for it. As far as the vegans go, all i ever hear is them complaining about what other people eat.

 

[Osal]

Here ya go, Chakra!

Not true. Case in Point:

Back in the the 1920s a group of outdoor sportsmen, mostly those who were avid duck hunters, became concerned with the dimishing numbers of ducks in North Amerca. They formed the organization Ducks Unlimited. These losses were not solely the result of hunting, and it was determined that the loss of nesting and living habitat ducks require was being reduced through wetland and forest reclaimation for agricultural purposes. They set to work to reducce the damage being cost by preserving existing wetlands, estabishing new and improving habitat for nesting. They also lobbied the federal government to reduce bag limits on a hunter's daily take and in some cases made outright prohibitions on those species who were in the greatest danger.

The succes is unparalleled. One example is the the Wood Duck

When I was a kid the "Woodie" was kinda rare. Today - maybe 50 years later - there are more Wood Ducks in North American than at any time in history. It's an amazing story and one of men and women who hunted, killed and ate these animals - people who care enough about the natural world and a legacy for all, that the worked tirelessly to ensure not only survival but prosperity of the species. True compassion. True humanity.

I don't think there's a single vegan who's a card-carrying member.

I don't think there's a single vegan-oriented group that does anything near what DU does.

 

[ratikala]

namaste , ....

Sorry, my dear, but it doesnt. It doesnt because it doesnt comply with tht rule of threefold puriy. Without that, its nothing but ego driven delusion. DU people don't run around, thumping their chests demanding that others follow. No, they take what they believe, put their money where their mouth is and get the damned job done. The results speak for them selves.

who said they were thumping their chests , ...I said very nice they have helped to save one spechies , ....but from a Buddhist perspective of practicing compassion , ....it would be a little hypercritical to save a duck because it is endangered , ... but to go home and eat a chicken ???

wouldnt it ......?

Last i saw there was still a lot of chemical fertilizers and pesticides being used and a lot more ducks in the sky. I can ride my bike 2 miles to the river and see a dozen different duck species, right now. Wait a couple months and that number will double. You can thank DU for it.

unfortunatly the chemical firtilisers affect more than Ducks , ...

As far as the vegans go, all i ever hear is them complaining about what other people eat.

oh yes , ...I too have come across some pretty argumentative vegans , but then I've come across equal amount if not more self opinionated and argumentative non vegans , ......but on the other hand there are also a lot of ecologicaly minded vegans who are just getting on with doing what they can where they can , .....especialy in the organic movements , ...

 

[Osal]

namaste , ....

who said they were thumping their chests ,

Not the DU folks.

The thing you often hear from vegan and vegetarians is how much they help animals and the environment. DU and other organizations do far more, even though they are more active in the exploitation of the resources in questions. For instance, one Wood Duck pair can produce more young than a single hunter can take. As a result, with sensible bag limits, we're seeing net gain. IOW we're putting more in than we're taking out.

It's actually progressed to the point of over-abundance. Where I live the Lesser Canada Geese are so numerous that they're considered pests.

And not just waterfowl.

In Northern Wisconsin, logging agtivity has increase the amount of prime White-Tailed Deer habitat. In fact it's created a "perfect storm" of sorts. Deer have become so numerous that there is too much impact on the environment. A few years ago, they offered people unlimited hunting in certain areas - kill as amny deer as you like - to reduce the excess population. Hunters actually refused to take part. They didn't want to take part in wholesale slaughter. The program failed.

Then there's Trout Unlimited, Muskies Unlimited, turkey unlimited and many other sportsman-oriented conservation groups working tirelessly to improve and preserve wildlife habitat.

To say that being a vegetarian or a vegan is somehow more compassionate that meat eating, is simply not true. In fact to assert such a thing is utterly ludicrous.

If you think you save a bunch of animals, fine, but I can assure you there are meat-eaters who are personally responsible for saveing and creating more wildlife than they eat.

Don't go patting yourself on the back too quickly. Your not eating meat is a mere drop in the bucket.

If this whole exercise is about harm, you don't have a candle to hold in the discussion and niether do any of our other veghetarian friends here.

 

[von bek]

If you think you save a bunch of animals, fine, but I can assure you there are meat-eaters who are personally responsible for saveing and creating more wildlife than they eat.

A great example of what you say is President Teddy Roosevelt. He was an avid hunter who traveled the world doing so. He probably killed one of everything, and since he served in a war we can add people to the list. Teddy also was a serious environmentalist who was responsible for creating federal parks and worked to protect animal and plant diversity in the United States.

 

[von bek]

For those who are unaware of Teddy Roosevelt's conservation work, check out this wiki article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Theodore_Roosevelt#Conservation

And this: http://www.nps.gov/thro/learn/historyculture/theodore-roosevelt-and-conservation.htm

Some of his accomplishments include establishing five National Parks and 150 national forests. He did more, too. Not too bad for an omnivore.

*ETA Teddy stands with Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt as my top three favorite presidents.

 

[Osal]

Teddy stands with Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt as my top three favorite presidents.

Same here. TR stands as one this country's greatest leaders (he was more than a simply a President), a truly great human being and the quintessentialAmerican gentleman spotsman. In my youth I was priviledged to be able to sneak into and fish private trout water that was one of TR's favorite. Few more beautiful places exist.

But back to the subject.

You methioned hunter/gatherer societies. I studied anthropology in college. I made much of that sudy with North American h/g societies. I worked in the field with their descendants. The spiritual manner of their approach to the killing they had to do is quite remarkable. It showed me that it isn't about how or where you get your food. It's about how you see your role. Modern consummerist societies loose sight of that. We don't know what it means to take that kind of responsibily, where your in another creature's blood and guts right up past your elbows. Having been raised to learn what that's like like, I can assure you there's nothing fun or even noble about it, but it taught me a deep and abiding appreciation for the life of the animals I've killed and eaten. I never take it for granted.

It's a part of my culture to eat meat. My guru has taught that culture is like a vessel and the dharma is pure water. That water can be poured into any vessel, take it's shape, but it's purity remains unchainged.


I think I'm doing all right.

 

[kalyan]

Same here. TR stands as one this country's greatest leaders (he was more than a simply a President), a truly great human being and the quintessentialAmerican gentleman spotsman. In my youth I was priviledged to be able to sneak into and fish private trout water that was one of TR's favorite. Few more beautiful places exist.

But back to the subject.

You methioned hunter/gatherer societies. I studied anthropology in college. I made much of that sudy with North American h/g societies. I worked in the field with their descendants. The spiritual manner of their approach to the killing they had to do is quite remarkable. It showed me that it isn't about how or where you get your food. It's about how you see your role. Modern consummerist societies loose sight of that. We don't know what it means to take that kind of responsibily, where your in another creature's blood and guts right up past your elbows. Having been raised to learn what that's like like, I can assure you there's nothing fun or even noble about it, but it taught me a deep and abiding appreciation for the life of the animals I've killed and eaten. I never take it for granted.

It's a part of my culture to eat meat. My guru has taught that culture is like a vessel and the dharma is pure water. That water can be poured into any vessel, take it's shape, but it's purity remains unchainged.


I think I'm doing all right.

why don't you just plain admit that you eat meat for PLEASURE (or what you consider pleasure, as some people are repelled by the smell of meat) instead of ranting all these bs and get away with it instead of trying to justify the eating....nobody is forcing you to become a vegan, so you should accept your inability to control the pleasure and we are cool......

 

[Osal]

why don't you just plain admit that you eat meat for PLEASURE (or what you consider pleasure, as some people are repelled by the smell of meat) instead of ranting all these bs and get away with it instead of trying to justify the eating....nobody is forcing you to become a vegan, so you should accept your inability to control the pleasure and we are cool......

Sure, I enjoy what I eat. Don't you?

Plus, if I must admit to inability, this means I'm being required to do something. I'd call that being forced.

Why don't you admit that you want all of us to be vegetarians?

 

[Chakra]

Not true. Case in Point:

Back in the the 1920s a group of outdoor sportsmen, mostly those who were avid duck hunters, became concerned with the dimishing numbers of ducks in North Amerca. They formed the organization Ducks Unlimited. These losses were not solely the result of hunting, and it was determined that the loss of nesting and living habitat ducks require was being reduced through wetland and forest reclaimation for agricultural purposes. They set to work to reducce the damage being cost by preserving existing wetlands, estabishing new and improving habitat for nesting. They also lobbied the federal government to reduce bag limits on a hunter's daily take and in some cases made outright prohibitions on those species who were in the greatest danger.

The succes is unparalleled. One example is the the Wood Duck

When I was a kid the "Woodie" was kinda rare. Today - maybe 50 years later - there are more Wood Ducks in North American than at any time in history. It's an amazing story and one of men and women who hunted, killed and ate these animals - people who care enough about the natural world and a legacy for all, that the worked tirelessly to ensure not only survival but prosperity of the species. True compassion. True humanity.

I don't think there's a single vegan who's a card-carrying member.

I don't think there's a single vegan-oriented group that does anything near what DU does.

I think you are falsely assuming that vegan/vegetarians are not part of any environmental groups.

Now, I applaud the DU for their intentions. But their impact is nowhere close to a vegan's. Let me explain.

Let's assume that the DU members follow a standard American diet- beef, dairy, pork, chicken, fish, eggs, and some vegetables. And now, let's take the average vegan- no dairy, no meat, no animal products.

Each day a vegan (compared to a standard meat-eater) will save the life of one animal, 20 pounds of CO2, 30 square feet of rainforest (remember, animal agriculture is the main cause of Amazonian deforestation), 45 pounds of grain, and 1100 gallons of water.

You said "..it was determined that the lose of nesting and living habitat ducks require was being reduced through wetland and forest reclamation for agricultural purposes...". Well, I think you have your answer there. Animal agriculture uses up 50% of the land in the mainland US, and 45% of all land mass on Earth. I think I would be safe to assume that the "agricultural purpose" had to do with the meat-industry.

True compassion and humanity, imho, is helping the environment and animals everyday, not once in a while.

 

[buddhist]

When will the vegetarians and vegans think of all the vegetables they're slaughtering for their eating pleasure!

Everyone needs to become a breathatarian or sunlightarian.

 

[Osal]

I think you are falsely assuming that vegan/vegetarians are not part of any environmental groups.

Now, I applaud the DU for their intentions. But their impact is nowhere close to a vegan's. Let me explain.

Nah.

These sportsman conservationists put back a lot of what they take. All i see from vegans is complaining about meat eaters and not taking responsibity for the deaths they cause themselves. All they seem to put back is manure.