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Is Christmas Pagan?

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
What tradition are they renaming? It's obviously not Yule or some other Northern European festival because they aren't in Northern Europe yet.

It wasn't Saturnalia, as this was on a different day and was even celebrated alongside Christmas in the same societies on different days.

The first reference to December 25 as the Nativity of Jesus occurs in a section of the Chronography of AD 354 known as the Calendar of Philocalus, which, even by this late date, still identified December 17 as ludi Saturnalia.

December 17 was recognized as the date of the Saturnalia as late as AD 448, when it was notated in the ecclesiastical calendar or laterculus ("list") of Polemius Silvius. But now, deprived of its pagan significance, it is identified only as feriae servorum ("festival of the slaves").

Sol Invictus? that's already been debunked in this thread.

So, which festival did they simply 'steal' and rename?

The rituals of the celebrations of Winter solstice that were celebrated all over Europe. There is and never was any evidence that Jesus was born on December 25. The birthdate was made up and Sol Invictus was not the only celebration of this period of time. So I am not invoking Sol Invictus. There is plenty of research showing traditions of the important part of the time.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
"Anyone who disagreed"? How powerful do you think the Church was?

The Roman Catholic church was powerful enough because of the Rome was powerful. It eliminated any alternative Christian beliefs up until the time that the Protestants gained enough military power to challenge the Roman Church. The Cather's were eliminated even though they thought they were Christians. You do not have any people writing about the Greek or Roman gods or goddesses until interest in them long after anyone who did believe in them had long disappeared. So what do you mean how powerful was the church?
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Paganism died out organically over centuries, it wasn't persecuted out of existence. Yes there were persecutions at times, but they were not qualitatively different from the Pagan Roman Empire persecutions.

So you really believe that the Roman Catholic Church tolerated other Pagan religions? Pagan Rome did not wipe out Christian believers the way the Roman Christian Church did, otherwise those pagan religions would have remained if there was even a shred of tolerance.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
It seems to?

It might have had any number of holidays in any number of places in part due to and/or in spite of the season? Therefore? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that (somewhere, at least) the December 25th celebration of Mōdraniht preceded the celebration of Chrismas. What, if anything, should we make of this?

Are you asking about links as to why one might transform into the other.. I think maybe you might draw a connection between the triple goddess (basically norns) and the three mary's.. these represent two parallel sets arranged in triplicate.. Now the norns carve men's fates.. The idea that Jesus had a fate was introduced as well, as mary was 'fated' to give birth, and when the three kings visited him when guided by a star, and this symbolized what he supposedly did before he acted. Hence his fate was created, apposite to methods of the norns. The three was important in the pagan world, and I'm not really sure gets a huge role in the old testament. It's another example of something Christianity reformulated
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
So, which festival did they simply 'steal' and rename?

At this point, given what we discussed about how religion evolves , it's becoming unclear where the goalposts are, given that we are establishing that it's not just one monolithic element that shifted. Rather, the new holiday was surely a composite, like a chicken nugget basically. It drew material from its antecedents, and they underwent homogenization, and this is probably where you can say that 'christmas is pagan.' I am unsure where you would disagree with the statement if we agree that religion / tradition is something that can 'evolve organically,' and where we know that Christianity is the newer thing
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Yes, I think so.

There's been a lot of speculation that Jesus would have been born sometime in August/September, and much of what you see as "Christmas traditions" were actually traditions of the Winter Solstice within Paganism. They were adapted to fit 'Christmas' when Christians began trying to convert the Pagan populations. Kind of an intentional blending of intent, with the hope that Pagans would find this acceptable and be more willing to convert, if my understanding is right.

Mithra was born on December 25th and Christianity hates competition. Co-opting holidays is not very nice.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
And as far as i remember only once is there only one relevant reference to relativistic time in the bible in 2 Peter 3:8. ... with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Note the "with the Lord". Not any one else and the "as". Indicating time is relativistic to the bible god only. Anything else is modern interpretation of what is actually writren

I can agree ' to the Bible God only ' at 2 Peter 3:8 in reference to Psalms 90:4,2.
So true a thousand years of human existence is just a short time for the Eternal Creator.
And much of our time begins in the morning and ends or concludes at day's end. ( day and night units of time )
After all, the Bible God does Not reside within our solar system and his home address is Heaven - 1 Kings 8:27,49 - where time can be unbroken.

What is actually written at Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26-27 mentions the 'days of Noah' (years) or as we might say, in Noah's day.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Mithra was born on December 25th and Christianity hates competition. Co-opting holidays is not very nice.
Yes, agree, co-opting holidays is Not very nice.
It is more than co-opting but mixing of true and false together.
Christendom (so-called Christian - Matthew 7:21-23) is different from 1st-century Christianity as found in the Bible.
1st-century Christians had nothing to do with non-Christian celebrations.
That mixing came after the first century, after the apostasy set in when 'weed/tares' began to grow the genuine ' wheat ' Christians.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Yes, agree, co-opting holidays is Not very nice.
It is more than co-opting but mixing of true and false together.
Christendom (so-called Christian - Matthew 7:21-23) is different from 1st-century Christianity as found in the Bible.
1st-century Christians had nothing to do with non-Christian celebrations.
That mixing came after the first century, after the apostasy set in when 'weed/tares' began to grow the genuine ' wheat ' Christians.

I think there was also a more recent time when Christians didn't celebrate pagan holidays like Christmas. Maybe the early 1900s...
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Mithra was born on December 25th and Christianity hates competition. Co-opting holidays is not very nice.

Thank you. Forgot how she was imported to Rome from the Iranian area and popular in the 1st through 4th century Rome during the time that the myth of Christmas was generated. Ironically Pagan religions were tolerant of each other and coexisted. It was when the Christian church took power that the other religions were no longer tolerated and eliminated with their rituals and symbols that could not be so easily snuffed out so were converted to Christian traditions then justified in Christian writings with any opposing writings eliminated.

The Gnostics who were Christians were eliminated and had to hide their writings from the Roman Christian Church. It is amazing that the writings were hidden so well to avoid being destroyed and finally found at nag hammadi. The have a very different picture of Christianity and shows clearly the intolerance and power of the Roman Catholic church had at that time. Pagan beliefs and rituals were all crushed or renamed in Christian mythology. Christmas is a clear example as is many other rituals and symbols
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
I think there was also a more recent time when Christians didn't celebrate pagan holidays like Christmas. Maybe the early 1900s...

Christmas was almost lost in early America from the puritans but there was enough of those who belonged to the Chinch of England which became the Episcopal Church in America maintained Christmas in America. Even in England during Oliver Cromwell reign there was an attempt to suppress Christmas which was seen as pagan.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I don’t believe in any case Jews copied from them, because there is no good reason and logical reason for that. But, Zoroastrianism is interesting, I believe it was born when Jews were in Persia and God did miracles for Jews there. Those events turned the rulers towards the God of Jews and probably caused the Zoroastrianism.

You are just making stuff up based on what you want to be true? It's well known that all of the Persian concepts, resurrection at the end of the world, a world savior, judgment in fire, Satan vs God and even concepts of the afterlife are dated back to at least 6BC. In 5BC the Persians invaded the Israelites and allowed exiled religious leaders to return to the city center and continue to develop their religion.
Over the next few centuries the Jewish myths started adding the concepts from the Persian beliefs. The afterlife belief was another, from Wiki:

It was not until the 2nd century BCE that there arose a belief in an afterlife, in which the dead would be resurrected and undergo divine judgment. Before that time, the individual had to be content that his posterity continued within the holy nation.[6]
Salvation - Wikipedia

This is what biblical scholars are saying. I gave 2 examples of an OT and NT PhD explaining this? Fransesca even explains why it made sense logically? For one the Persians were nice to them and this helped endear these concepts to the Jewish scribes but they were also very popular ideas. Eventually Jewish scribes were able to find ways to say "Hey Yahweh wants this for us as well".



I think Bible doesn’t really have that concept. Afterlife, or forgiveness is not because of any kind of sacrifice. And not even about eating symbolically Jesus. Wine and bread are the “blood” and “body” of the covenant that was established through Jesus. They are like seal for the covenant. Everyone who participates to it (bread and wine as Jesus taught it), takes part of that covenant and its promises and conditions.


Uhh - "For Christianity, salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ. Christians believe that Jesus' death on the cross was the once-for-all sacrifice that atoned for the sin of humanity."
Same Wiki page on salvation?
It was a magic blood atonement sacrifice?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
So true a thousand years of human existence is just a short time for the Eternal Creator.

As i stated, only one reference and that refers fo a particular event so such a claim is assumption based on guesswork

After all, the Bible God does Not reside within our solar system and his home address is Heaven - 1 Kings 8:27,49 - where time can be unbroken.

It mentions nothing about anywhere but earth.


What is actually written at Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26-27 mentions the 'days of Noah' (years) or as we might say, in Noah's day.

No times mentioned

So i assume some filling in of data to suite particular sects of christianity. Certainly when i was christian (cofe) there was no mention of time dilation
 
The rituals of the celebrations of Winter solstice that were celebrated all over Europe. There is and never was any evidence that Jesus was born on December 25. The birthdate was made up and Sol Invictus was not the only celebration of this period of time. So I am not invoking Sol Invictus. There is plenty of research showing traditions of the important part of the time.

So far in your discussion of 2nd/3rd C Christians in the Eastern Med chose Dec 25th for Christmas has involved randomly grabbing unrelated events from a couple of millennia of global history that happened thousands of miles and hundreds of years apart and repeatedly talking about the completely irrelevant actual birthdate of the human Jesus and assuming a near omnipotent Catholic Church was involved.

Back to the 2nd/3rd C Christians:

You seem to now accept they didn't actually simply rename a Roman festival at all (or a Germanic one). That it wasn't Sol Invictus, and it wasn't Saturnalia as both existed on the same calendars on different dates.

It seems to be simply that "pagans" everywhere have exclusive ownership of the solstices.

Ironically, the only way this makes any sense is to use a Christian theological dichotomy.

Once we move away from the Christian language of Christian and “pagan” we break the artificial links between ‘pagan’ cultures.

So saying the solstices are ‘pagan’, simply means they were important in countless non-Christian societies who each found their own symbolism in tangible, observable astronomical events.

These “pagans” did not “steal” the events from other “pagans”, yet you seem to want to insist that the Christians were the only group of people who could not legitimately find their own symbolism in the solstices in conjunction with their own mythology and that the only possible reason is that it was some form of devious ploy.

Remember, these dates go back to when the same Christians who were deviously “rebranding paganism” were literally dying for their refusal to carry out basic "pagan" rituals.

What seems more logical to you:

a) The people who were literally dying for their fanatical insistence on avoiding partaking in pagan rituals were also blatantly and publicly stealing pagan rituals as a crude marketing ploy.

b) The people who were literally dying for their fanatical insistence on avoiding partaking in pagan rituals found their own symbolism in solstices that they considered to be authentically Christian (and, in part, based on Judaic tradition), just like hundreds of other cultures had done previously with their own belief systems?

(Remember, talking about the ‘big bad very evil Church’ is anachronistic and thus irrelevant to this question as, at this time, Christians were a marginal religion still being oppressed by the ‘tolerant pagans’. What may or may not have happened hundreds of years later and thousands of miles away doesn't matter.)
 
Mithra was born on December 25th and Christianity hates competition. Co-opting holidays is not very nice.

No he wasn't, he wasn't even born but created out of rock on an unspecified date.

Also, Mithras was late 1st C origin Roman god who postdates Jesus, not the Indic Mitra who long predates him. The Romans just tacked him onto an old tradition as they hated "new" religions as superstitio. That is why Judaism was given more leeway than Christianity when it came to the great persecutions.


I propose to locate Mithraism's founding group among the dependants, military and civilian, of the dynasty of Commagene as it made the transition from client rulers to Roman aristocrats.3 The kingdom of Commagene on the Empire's eastern marches with Parthia and Armenia figures, more or less prominently, in all accounts of the transmission of Mithras worship, because the monuments and texts of Antiochus I, its mid-first-century B.C. ruler and the founder of a remarkable syncretistic Greco-Iranian royal cult, accord to Mithras a prominent place in the newly defined pantheon.37 It is, however, on the ending of the kingdom more than a century later that I wish to focus.38 The actual demise occurred in A.D. 72 with the deposition of the long-reigning Antiochus IV,

The Mysteries of Mithras: A New Account of Their Genesis - Roger Beck
The Journal of Roman Studies, Vol. 88 (1998), pp. 115-128
 
Ironically Pagan religions were tolerant of each other and coexisted.

Their acceptance was mostly to do with the degree to which the gods of the 'other' could be mapped on to the Roman gods and the degree to which they were seen as ancient (religio) or modern (superstitio). This is why you see 'modern' late 1st C origin cults like Mithras being mapped on to the ancient Mitra to 'fake' legitimacy.

You should not only worship the divine everywhere and in every way in accordance with our ancestral traditions, but also force all others to honour it. Those who attempt to distort our religion with strange rites you should hate and punish, not only for the sake of the gods … but also because such people, by bringing in new divinities, persuade many folks to adopt foreign practices, which lead to conspiracies, revolts, and factions, which are entirely unsuitable for monarch.” Dio Cassius - History of Rome

Also, tolerant' Romans:

In Egypt, some Manicheans, followers of the prophet Mani, were denounced in the presence of the proconsul of Africa. On March 31, 302, in a rescript from Alexandria, Diocletian, after consultation with the proconsul for Egypt, ordered that the leading Manicheans be burnt alive along with their scriptures.[115] This was the first time an Imperial persecution ever called for the destruction of sacred literature.[116] Low-status Manicheans were to be executed; high-status Manicheans were to be sent to work in the quarries of Proconnesus (Marmara Island) or the mines of Phaeno. All Manichean property was to be seized and deposited in the imperial treasury.[115]

Diocletianic Persecution - Wikipedia

Also see persecutions of Druids, followers of Bacchus, astrologers, etc

The Roman Catholic church was powerful enough because of the Rome was powerful. It eliminated any alternative Christian beliefs up until the time that the Protestants gained enough military power to challenge the Roman Church.

Sorry, but this couldn't be more false.

They eliminated any alternative Christian beliefs? There were literally hundreds of Christian sects in existence as they had absolutely no ability to 'eliminate' them all. Not to mention plenty of them existed far outside the Roman Empire.

Some might have wanted to, but it was impossible as they were not omnipotent, and administration and enforcement in the pre-modern world was a world away from your imagination of it.

Think about the Soviet Union and its attempts to eliminate religion or political dissent, or the Chinese Cultural Revolution. Both of these were far smaller Empires with infinitely better technology and enforcement capabilities and they came nowhere near to achieving what you ascribe to the Church.

Now try to explain the logistics of your centralised omnipotent Church systematically scouring the Empire of heresy and paganism. Maybe they has a Death Star or something that I missed :D

The best you will do is mention sporadic, localised persecutions. Don't forget sporadic, localised persecutions were very much part of the Pagan Roman Empire too and these failed to eradicate their opponents too.

Empires were decentralised and different [arts acted according to their own whims as communication was so slow, and central powers highly limited in their ability to project power across vast distances.

Why did they die out over many, many centuries then?

What do you think happens to a religion based on praxis when it's major centres shut down as no one is paying for them?

Once the major city based centres die out, who is writing about them?

Then over centuries, the beliefs among the 'commoners' die out or evolve too, often because their chiefs or lords convert.

Some belief systems just stop being popular over time. They are not 'eradicated', even if they are persecuted at times. Some of their traditions are absorbed into their new belief systems, that is the way it always has been.

You do not have any people writing about the Greek or Roman gods or goddesses until interest in them long after anyone who did believe in them had long disappeared. So what do you mean how powerful was the church?

Why do you think we know so much about all of these Roman and Greek gods, philosophies, etc?

Christians spend the best part of 1600 years copying "pagan" texts endlessly. Where do you think our copies of the Iliad or any Greek philosophical text come from?

You have all kinds of "Pagan" writers for centuries after Constantine, you even had a pagan Emperor, Julian.

Neoplatonism (basically a "pagan" religion) had a major impact on Christian theology

Greek "pagan" texts formed a core part of Byzantine (i.e. Greek) education after the fall of the Roman West.

Unfortunately, yours is a comic book version of history, not an accurate reflection of the complexities of the historical reality.
 
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