Is Christmas Pagan?

[IndigoChild5559]

No you missed the point completely. Many cultures of Europe have evidence that they celebrated Solstice which predated the celebration of Christian Christmas by thousands of years.

Christmas is not on Solstice.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No you missed the point completely. Many cultures of Europe have evidence that they celebrated Solstice which predated the celebration of Christian Christmas by thousands of years.

Christmas is not on Solstice.

But, as we all know, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[ppp]

Christmas is not on Solstice.

Christmas is no longer on the Solstice. December 25 was on the Solstice on the Julian calendar. The Calendar that Christians used for almost 1600 years.

 

[Bear Wild]

Christmas is not on Solstice.

I know that, one was made up by Christians with no evidence the other was a well established celebration throughout Europe with important rituals and symbols that was celebrated from winter solstice and beyond that date that would include the 25th of December. What is sad is the fact that the Roman Christian Church actively eliminated any religious belief that apposed them and adopted the pagan celebrations incorporating them into a made up birthdate for Jesus. They did this kind of activity throughout their expansion then using the very effective organizational structure in place to eliminate anyone that did not agree including other Christians.

It must have been clear to those trying to convert all of those pagans who did not have so much of a problem believing in another god or goddess as long as they continue the rituals and symbols. There was no celebration of the birth of Jesus in the early Christian religion but the church new importance of shifting the meaning of rituals that local pagans would not be willing to give up to Christian celebrations would make conversion much easier. Using a logic that was made up covered two important celebration times together was convenient and useful event. Then incorporate the rituals now renamed in honor of Jesus was classic of the growing Christian church of that time and then eliminate every other religion.

 

[Bear Wild]

a) The people who were literally dying for their fanatical insistence on avoiding partaking in pagan rituals were also blatantly and publicly stealing pagan rituals as a crude marketing ploy.

Actually the Christianity was tolerated by Rome until there were conflicts that developed. Were those you are talking about celebrating the birthdate of Jesus saying it was on December 25?

 

[Bear Wild]

b) The people who were literally dying for their fanatical insistence on avoiding partaking in pagan rituals found their own symbolism in solstices that they considered to be authentically Christian (and, in part, based on Judaic tradition), just like hundreds of other cultures had done previously with their own belief systems?

That was true until the Roman Christian church came into power then everything changed and that is when the church actively absorbed pagan rituals and symbols.

 

[Bear Wild]

Sorry, but this couldn't be more false.

No, sorry that is very true. Why do you think the Gnostics, Cather's, Marcionites and other groups disappeared as well as all of the pagan religions of Europe. Why the Gnostics had to hide their sacred scriptures. Or do you think they all, everyone realized they were wrong and joined the Roman Church and gave up what they believed in because they recognized their errors of their ways. That is naïve and not consistent with history.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But, as we all know, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Seriously? So Chanukah is because of Thanksgiving? Makes no sense.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Christmas is no longer on the Solstice. December 25 was on the Solstice on the Julian calendar. The Calendar that Christians used for almost 1600 years.

It is my understanding that Christians in the east who still use the Julian Calendar do not celebrate Christmas on December 25, but on the 7th of January by our Gregorian Calendar. (If I'm off by a day or something, someone please correct me.)

 

[Augustus]

Why do you think the Gnostics, Cather's, Marcionites and other groups disappeared as well as all of the pagan religions of Europe.

What happened to all of the "pagan" religions that died out under the "pagans"? Were they all persecuted into non-existence? Do you seriously think the only way a culture can disappear is via systematic eradication?

99.9% of all belief systems in history have disappeared. Christianity had reduced massively in Europe over the past century, is this purely due to systematic persecution?

But your whole argument is based on an error. Gnostics didn't 'disappear'. If you accept that the Cathars existed (which many historians don't, but that's another story), you accept there were thriving Gnostic sects in Northern Europe nearly 1000 years after the almighty Church began their relentless persecution of them.

Marcionites lasted the best part of a millennium too. Pagans likewise, if not longer.

Hardly great support for your 'omnipotent' Church hypothesis.

Honestly though, try to understand the logistic of running an ancient empire and how institutions functioned in the ancient era. Then you will understand why it's naive to overstate their ability to project centralised power.

Roman Emperors couldn't even make people comply with edicts and they were frequently ignored. Why do you think the Church could control the Empire at will?

 

[Augustus]

Were those you are talking about celebrating the birthdate of Jesus saying it was on December 25?

Yes, it's been noted multiple times in this thread.

See:

There was a North African sect called the Donatists who split form the Church in 312 and seem to have their origins a decade or so earlier during the (pre-Constantine) Diocletian persecutions (perhaps not coincidentally given their austere approach to religion, there was a Muslim Kharijite revolt against the Umayyads in the same Berber region that the Donatists developed in many years later).

During the persecutions, the Romans had demanded Christians hand over their scriptures. Some groups caved in to the pressure, the Donatists, who were a very strict sect, did not.

They even believed a priest who had accepted the demands of the authorities to hand over their scriptures was no longer fit to deliver holy sacraments as they held a belief that a priest must be free of sin.

There is also evidence that they refused to adopt innovations, as we have records from Augustine showing they refused to adopt the celebration of Epiphany on 6 Jan in line with the rest of the Church. That their refusal to celebrate Epiphany was noted, yet not their refusal to adopt Christmas strongly suggests that they did celebrate Christmas on the 25th Dec.

This is important for 2 reasons:

1. It points towards a North African tradition going back to at least the start of the 4th C (as is supported by other calculation sources)
2. Given the nature of their sect and their hardline attitudes, it makes it somewhat unlikely that they would accept a date that was clearly an attempt to appropriate a Pagan holiday as some kind of marketing ploy. This was still a time when people were being killed for refusing to adopt pagan customs after all. This makes it more likely that there was a Christian reason to favour the 25th.

I've already posted evidence that Christians were calculating Christmas dates long before this too.

That was true until the Roman Christian church came into power then everything changed and that is when the church actively absorbed pagan rituals and symbols.

So you think the Roman Christian Church was all powerful in the 2nd/3rd C when this happened in the pagan Roman Empire that was persecuting the Christians (and many other religious minorities?)?

 

[ppp]

It is my understanding that Christians in the east who still use the Julian Calendar do not celebrate Christmas on December 25, but on the 7th of January by our Gregorian Calendar. (If I'm off by a day or something, someone please correct me.)

That's true. After the move to the Gregorian calendar, some people did not accept the removal of the 11 days to accommodate the discrepancies.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Seriously? So Chanukah is because of Thanksgiving? Makes no sense.

You may be misreading the Latin.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: 'after this, therefore because of this') is an informal fallacy that states: "Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X." It is often shortened simply to post hoc fallacy.
- source​

so ...

• Christmas came after {insert presumed pagan festival here], therefore Christmas came because of [reinsert here].
• Thanksgiving came after Chanukah, therefore Thanksgiving came because of Chanukah

 

[Sand Dancer]

Ironically Pagan religions were tolerant of each other and coexisted. It was when the Christian church took power that the other religions were no longer tolerated and eliminated with their rituals and symbols that could not be so easily snuffed out so were converted to Christian traditions then justified in Christian writings with any opposing writings eliminated.

Polytheists don't mind a few more gods. The more the merrier.

The Gnostics who were Christians were eliminated and had to hide their writings from the Roman Christian Church. It is amazing that the writings were hidden so well to avoid being destroyed and finally found at nag hammadi. The have a very different picture of Christianity and shows clearly the intolerance and power of the Roman Catholic church had at that time. Pagan beliefs and rituals were all crushed or renamed in Christian mythology. Christmas is a clear example as is many other rituals and symbols

Yes. I really enjoy reading about Gnosticism.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's why they used it to without any evidence to connect two important pagan festival times. It fit perfectly. Bingo!

Which two important festivals? Documented where?

 

[oldbadger]

Christmas is no longer on the Solstice. December 25 was on the Solstice on the Julian calendar. The Calendar that Christians used for almost 1600 years.

You are thinking of Christmas as a date, which is understandable.
But Pagan Christmas was at a time, a time exactly decided by the first signs of a return of the winter sun. So, about 4 days after mid winter solstice.

And, amazingly, that's when Christians held their feast as well..... a reversal in the old pagan ways, just like Christianity reversed in to places where folks gathered, or what they believed.

And that happens to be 25th December.......

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: 'after this, therefore because of this') is an informal fallacy that states: "Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X." It is often shortened simply to post hoc fallacy.
- source

I guess a problem though, is that we aren't talking about the sorts of disparate occurrences on the fringes of the cultural landscape.. we are talking about massive borg-like empires and general spiritual inclinations, and that's why these broad things are being shown to connect. It seems to me that in these kinds of threads, people are trying to debunk the notion of assimilation in that context

 

[oldbadger]

You may be misreading the Latin.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin: 'after this, therefore because of this') is an informal fallacy that states: "Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X." It is often shortened simply to post hoc fallacy.
- source​

so ...

• Christmas came after {insert presumed pagan festival here], therefore Christmas came because of [reinsert here].
• Thanksgiving came after Chanukah, therefore Thanksgiving came because of Chanukah

Try :-
"Since event Y followed event X, event Y may often have been caused by event X."

So your maxim doesn't work here.
If you've got any problems with understanding how Ancient British feasts fell 4 days after mid winter solstice then you might research stone circles such as Stonehenge and read archaeologists' reports about same?

Easy.....

 

[oldbadger]

Which two important festivals? Documented where?

Several important festivals.......
Here you are, this website, first of many choices, can lead you on to loads more education about all this:-
www.througheternity.com
Holidays with pagan origins:-
Christmas, New Year, Easter, Roman version Halloween, Mayday (May 1st), Epiphany,

and more, actually.......

 

[1213]

...the Persians invaded the Israelites... ... the Persians were nice to them ....

You think that is logical? Sorry, I think the belief Jews copied is ridiculous and that is the main reason why I don’t believe it. The second reason is, there simply is no reasonable evidence for it.

...
Uhh - "For Christianity, salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ. Christians believe that Jesus' death on the cross was the once-for-all sacrifice that atoned for the sin of humanity."
Same Wiki page on salvation?
It was a magic blood atonement sacrifice?

Sorry, I believe what the Bible tells. “Christians” have many non-Biblical ideas that can’t be supported well by the Bible.