Is Christmas Pagan?

[Twilight Hue]

It is FALLACIOUS to appeal to authority when the authorities do not agree.

It's not really an appeal to authority.

I probably should have used another source other than the History Channel , so here's one from Michigan State University on the topic.

How did evergreen trees become a symbol for Christmas?

A brief history on using evergreens as Christmas trees and what they symbolized.

www.canr.msu.edu

I can't help it if you don't agree with the experts on the subject. I didn't think this would be all that big of a deal.

Anyways a really weird fact with Christmas trees is that they used to be hung upside down from the ceiling by chains! Talk about little known facts! Must of been quite a task decorating them. =O)

But I don't mind if you have the last word on the matter. it's not all that interesting for me aside from the curiosity I had on it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's not really an appeal to authority.

That was a CLASSIC appeal to authority LOL. It's right there in your text for everyone to see.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That was a CLASSIC appeal to authority LOL. It's right there in your text for everyone to see.

So where do you get your facts from if not a university or science instution?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So where do you get your facts from if not a university or science instution?

In this case, I get my knowledge of the fallacy of appeal to authority from the Logic and Critical Thinking course I took at the university.

 

[Bear Wild]

If there is no connection between Christians adopting Christmas trees and paganism, then you cannot claim that it goes back "To Etyptians."

That is not my implication. Evergreens are featured in Norse and Celtic myth with tremendous symbolism. From what I found the first Christmas tree at least recorded appears to be around 1419 in Germany. We know in Icelandic and in Irish that traditions lasted well beyond the conversation to Christianity. It is normal for people to hold onto things important to them. Evergreens as well as forests are deep in the psyche of the German people especially at the time of the first Christmas tree. The person doing it was doing if for Christianity, but it comes form a much older sourse of reverence now adopted to Christianity.

We do have some written accounts of ancient customs performed as in 1138 traditions similar to pre-Christian rites were still being performed.

“It tells how a man from near Aachen got permission to build a ship, which he had put on wheels and had drawn by weavers. They took it to Aachen, Maesdricht (where it was given a mast and sail), Tongres, Borgloon, and finally to Trond. Here the abbot warned the townspeople against it,
and the weavers had to guard it day and night, but nonetheless it was welcomed with riotous delight by the townspeople; in the evening half-naked women are said to have rushed to the ship and danced around it. At midnight the dance ended and a great shouting took place, but sadly no words were recorded. This went on for twelve nights, and when more sober citizens wanted to burn the ship, there was such an outcry that it departed unharmed to Louvain, although the gates of the town were closed against it.”



Reaves, William P.. Odin's Wife: Mother Earth in Germanic Mythology (p. 64). Kindle Edition.

 

[Bear Wild]

Absolutely.

Thus, if a contemporary pagan adopts the holiday of Christmas but celebrates it according to their way it can then beccome pagan to them.,

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That is not my implication. Evergreens are featured in Norse and Celtic myth with tremendous symbolism. From what I found the first Christmas tree at least recorded appears to be around 1419 in Germany.

Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition—as we now know it—by the 16th century when sources record devout Christians bringing decorated trees into their homes.

History of Christmas Trees ‑ Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s.

www.history.com

The last of the Saxons was converted to Christianity by force in the late 8th century.

That means the two are separated by 800 years. There is thus NO connection.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thus, if a contemporary pagan adopts the holiday of Christmas but celebrates it according to their way it can then beccome pagan to them.,

I agree. And for a great many people, Christmas is an entirely secular holiday.

 

[Augustus]

If these were generically human activities, you would see them consistently throughout the winter months.

People did have winter fires and reason for keeping them lit, and people have always used local flora for symbolic and decorative purposes, especially for celebrations though.

The source of inspiration wouldn't be some guy in 16th century Germany that decided that he needed to add more flair to his Christmas celebration. This would have been pre-Christian practices of indigenous people that stuck through the conversion process.

This is what I meant previously when I mentioned unbroken traditions. The problem is there isn't really any evidence in favour of these.

Evidence of a "Christmas log" (which was basically just a fire) long predates any evidence of a "Yule log". Yule was a season, not specifically a celebration, and no early sources about rituals associated with winter festivals mention logs or trees.

Fire in winter is good though, so I it wouldn't be too surprising if various people independently had some kind of fire based ritual.

Christmas trees just appear in the historical record in around the 16th C with Christian symbolism. The decorative tree in the house is more a later tradition still. Advent wreaths are 19th C.

It's not really surprising again that winter festivals and evergreens go together. You would expect lots of societies to find their own uses for them.

It's possible these relate to a long standing tradition that remained in unrecorded folk memory for many centuries, but seems far more likely that all people find meaning in stuff in their environment and it represented a new tradition that emerged long after any vaguely resemblant tradition had died out.

 

[Augustus]

I probably should have used another source other than the History Channel , so here's one from Michigan State University on the topic.

History Channel, as we might expect from the home of "ancient aliens", and their related website are terrible on anything historical.

The MSU article is not written by a history scholar. Universities (and many other organisations), publish blogs and articles written by folk in the marketing department, administrators, outreach folk and even interns to drive website traffic for things like SEO. Someone googles a topic and writes a post in 30 mins.

You need to differentiate between a university using its website to publish scholarship or expert content, and the commercial side of the university where non-experts spam content for other reasons.

 

[Bear Wild]

Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition—as we now know it—by the 16th century when sources record devout Christians bringing decorated trees into their homes.

History of Christmas Trees ‑ Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s.

www.history.com

The last of the Saxons was converted to Christianity by force in the late 8th century.

That means the two are separated by 800 years. There is thus NO connection.

But the people remember and retain traditions long after they do not remember their source. Frau Holle is still remembered in Germany whose origins have been determined as a pre-Christian goddess who is associated with a body of water in the Meissner region characteristic of pre-Christian goddess. There are even votive offerings found there. She is associated with spinning and weaving consistent with Germanic and Norse mythology. She operates both above and below the clouds and is especially tied to the weather. During the cold winter months, she shakes out her down pillows and bedcovers, filling the air with feathers, causing it to snow. Frau Holle visits villages during Christmas time, inspecting homes and handing out gifts from her garden and kitchen— the fruits of the earth, nuts and apples, and plenty of freshly baked cookies and cakes. For ill-behaved children, she brings coal and switches. Her presence is still recognized in Germany so to say 800 years is to long is incorrect. Trees and forests have been with the German people for far more than 800 years. They did not import the idea of a Christmas tree from the middle east.

Reaves, William P.. Odin's Wife: Mother Earth in Germanic Mythology. Kindle Edition.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But the people remember and retain traditions long after they do not remember their source.

No, Bear. That's not how it works. When a people such as the Saxons are forcefully converted to christiainity, they keep their old traditions on pain of death.

 

[Bear Wild]

No, Bear. That's not how it works. When a people such as the Saxons are forcefully converted to christiainity, they keep their old traditions on pain of death.

If you think that erases memory important symbols and removes the associations and relationships to the land, then you have vastly underestimated human behavior. Yes, Charlemagne murdered so many Saxons who publicly refused to convert. He was such nice Christian wasn't he. If you want to see how long traditions that span back to pre-Christian times just visit western Ireland. They may consider themselves Christian but some of the fishermen still spoke an animistic form of Irish up until very recently. Now of course you could claim that the fairy folk, selkies, pucas are a Christian invention then well who can agree against a religion who puts it written stamp converts everything to Christian immediately removing any past. The problem about understanding the past was that the pre-Christian did not use the written language so all we have is one side of a much more complex story. In a way I believe it was the folk tales recorded by Grimm that give at least some view of the past. Academic research in this area however primarily uses written sources of scholarship and cannot truly be objective because the sources are not objective.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If you think that erases memory important symbols and removes the associations and relationships to the land, then you have vastly underestimated human behavior.

Not at all.

 

[Bear Wild]

Not at all.

Despite I end up often agreeing with you (excluding hot theory neuroscience) here I completely disagree. Evergreens are so much an aspect of the psyche for the Germans long before they were colonized by a Christian empire. Apply it to Christianity makes sense. Or did they have Christmas trees in the middle east? But I will as always take in what you said and think about it my friend.

 

[Augustus]

Evergreens are so much an aspect of the psyche for the Germans long before they were colonized by a Christian empire. Apply it to Christianity makes sense. Or did they have Christmas trees in the middle east?

Many historical things make sense in theory, it doesn't really mean they actually happened though

Forests are spooky, and evergreens stand out in the winter. Trees endure through the ages, and are often local landmarks. There is nothing particularly Germanic about this.

There was a tree in the garden of Eden. There are myths about Mary giving birth under a Palm tree. Banyan trees are sacred to many Hindus. Ghosts live in Indonesian banana trees. Druids probably had sacred trees or groves. There are no doubt thousands more examples.

Humans like trees and give them symbolic meaning, and if you need a tree in northern winter, it will likely be evergreen.

People in the same environment notice the same things and ascribe their own meanings to them. That one group had an earlier tradition involving trees, doesn't really mean it is probable that a much later group's completely different tradition involving trees is likely a multi-century continuation of a completely undocumented tradition. It could be, but there isn't any real evidence that it is.

Folk make their own meanings, and they have limited environmental features available to do this. Hence the thousands of tree related myths, legends and rituals from all over the world that emerged independently of each other.

In your opinion, why do you think it is probable that it was the continuation of ancient tradition.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Despite I end up often agreeing with you (excluding hot theory neuroscience) here I completely disagree. Evergreens are so much an aspect of the psyche for the Germans long before they were colonized by a Christian empire. Apply it to Christianity makes sense. Or did they have Christmas trees in the middle east? But I will as always take in what you said and think about it my friend.

It's okay, Bear. I'm really cool with others not agreeing with me. I greatly enjoy our conversations.

 

[Bear Wild]

Many historical things make sense in theory, it doesn't really mean they actually happened though

Forests are spooky, and evergreens stand out in the winter. Trees endure through the ages, and are often local landmarks. There is nothing particularly Germanic about this.

There was a tree in the garden of Eden. There are myths about Mary giving birth under a Palm tree. Banyan trees are sacred to many Hindus. Ghosts live in Indonesian banana trees. Druids probably had sacred trees or groves. There are no doubt thousands more examples.

Humans like trees and give them symbolic meaning, and if you need a tree in northern winter, it will likely be evergreen.

People in the same environment notice the same things and ascribe their own meanings to them. That one group had an earlier tradition involving trees, doesn't really mean it is probable that a much later group's completely different tradition involving trees is likely a multi-century continuation of a completely undocumented tradition. It could be, but there isn't any real evidence that it is.

Folk make their own meanings, and they have limited environmental features available to do this. Hence the thousands of tree related myths, legends and rituals from all over the world that emerged independently of each other.

In your opinion, why do you think it is probable that it was the continuation of ancient tradition.

Because humans are very conservative in nature. German mythology and trees are tightly woven. This is Waldeinsamkeit the deep spiritual feeling in being in the forest. This love was expressed by King albert to queen Victoria. This did not come imported from Christianity from Rome. This was a German expression of the sacred. They did not learn this from Christianity. Sacred groves were important to their pre-Christian ritual even commented by Tacitus as he says that the Germanic peoples "consecrate woods and groves and they apply the name of gods to that mysterious presence which they see only with the eye of devotion",

 

[Bear Wild]

It's okay, Bear. I'm really cool with others not agreeing with me. I greatly enjoy our conversations.

I know that's why I love our debates and don't worry you have convinced me of many things although I will have to deny that if anyone asks.

 

[Twilight Hue]

History Channel, as we might expect from the home of "ancient aliens", and their related website are terrible on anything historical.

The MSU article is not written by a history scholar. Universities (and many other organisations), publish blogs and articles written by folk in the marketing department, administrators, outreach folk and even interns to drive website traffic for things like SEO. Someone googles a topic and writes a post in 30 mins.

You need to differentiate between a university using its website to publish scholarship or expert content, and the commercial side of the university where non-experts spam content for other reasons.

I'm not under the impression that University would allow anything false or superfluous to be published on its website.