Is Christmas Pagan?

[Augustus]

I'm not under the impression that University would allow anything false or superfluous to be published on its website.

You'd be surprised... Who do you think writes a lot of copy on commercial parts of the website? The professors?

That article was written by some children's community outreach person with a background in horticulture and published on the community outreach part of their site, probably as a tool for driving web traffic.

It certainly wasn't written as an expert piece of scholarship to represent the university faculty.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I dont' think they wanted to get rid of Christmas because it was pagan. They wanted to get rid of it because it was Catholic.

The Puritans were opposed to graven images, stained glass windows, statues of Saints, excessive ritual, and anything else that smacked of idolatry. Christmas was probably collateral because it involved excessive feasting and drinking, both of which were also considered sinful.

 

[Augustus]

Because humans are very conservative in nature. German mythology and trees are tightly woven. This is Waldeinsamkeit the deep spiritual feeling in being in the forest. This love was expressed by King albert to queen Victoria. This did not come imported from Christianity from Rome. This was a German expression of the sacred. They did not learn this from Christianity. Sacred groves were important to their pre-Christian ritual even commented by Tacitus as he says that the Germanic peoples "consecrate woods and groves and they apply the name of gods to that mysterious presence which they see only with the eye of devotion",

They don't really come from Christianity or paganism though, they come from our environment.

When I was a kid I found forests spooky and the holly in my garden pretty. This wasn’t due to Germanic mythology, just an interaction with my surroundings.

People in the mountains have stories about mountains. People by the sea have stories about the sea. People by forests have stories about the forests.

That doesn't make the mountains, sea and forest intrinsically pagan though. Elements of culture do remain through the ages, but also people create new sources of meaning by combining new perspectives with their old environment.

A Christian using a tree to represent the one in the Garden of Eden doesn't need a pagan antecedent, neither does an 18th C German using one as a decoration.

Sacred tree groves - multi-century gap - Christian plays featuring trees & decorative trees in public and private spaces.

These aren't sacred objects, just symbolic or decorative. The former could be the inspiration for the latter, but it's just speculation as there is no real evidence for it. The lack of evidence counts against it, as do the very long time frames involved, the lack of any direct similarity and that there are alternative explanations that don't rely on such time scales.

Just seems like too much projection.

Ancient Jews and Christians used pagan iconography of the sun in their decorations, but these were just decorations. Even if some pagans worshipped it, for others the sun is still just the sun.

Sometimes a tree is just a tree, not a sacred object of pagan devotion being reappropriated into a new religious context in the name of cultural continuity.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You'd be surprised... Who do you think writes a lot of copy on commercial parts of the website? The professors?

That article was written by some children's community outreach person with a background in horticulture and published on the community outreach part of their site, probably as a tool for driving web traffic.

It certainly wasn't written as an expert piece of scholarship to represent the university faculty.

I would like to see how its not pagan in origin and not started with early Egyptian and Roman festivals.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

by definition christianity is not pagan. however much of its dogma and tradition and scripture contains many pagan references that predate Christianity.
All religions contain ideas and references to earlier religions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Puritans were opposed to graven images, stained glass windows, statues of Saints, excessive ritual, and anything else that smacked of idolatry. Christmas was probably collateral because it involved excessive feasting and drinking, both of which were also considered sinful.

You mean anything that smacked of Catholicism.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You mean anything that smacked of Catholicism.

No, not specifically, since all these ‘impure’ practices were widespread in High Church Anglicanism.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, not specifically, since all these ‘impure’ practices were widespread in High Church Anglicanism.

The whole REASON that the Puritans were opposed to the Church of England, is that they considered it too Catholic.

 

[Augustus]

I would like to see how its not pagan in origin and not started with early Egyptian and Roman festivals.

Usually, we start by presenting evidence that something is true...

Christmas trees appeared in 16th C Germany, and only became popular in the 18th C - why would they be influenced by what Egyptians did with palm trees 3000 years before this? If it was a Roman tradition, why is it only appearing in 16th C Germany rather than one of the more Roman parts of Europe or the Mediterranean?

If you mean Christmas, a rough overview would be:

1. The dating of Christmas to 25 Dec seems to long precede any desire to turn it in to a popular feast day. Early Christians liked to calculate important dates, and it is not really surprising the birth of Jesus would be one of these. The desire to calculate doesn't necessarily mean a desire to celebrate though. The dating, in a convoluted way, results from the dating of Easter and the conception of Jesus on 25 March - 9 months before 25 Dec. This happened at a time where many Christians were still very much trying to distance themselves from pagans, and the idea that hardline sects who preferred to die than engage in 'pagan' practices were also deliberately appropriating pagan days for marketing purposes is a bit of a stretch.
2. Saturnalia and Christmas continued to be celebrated alongside each other on different days for a century or two. As such, it is hard to paint Christmas as a replacement for Saturnalia.
3. There is a calendar that shows the games in honour of [Sol] Invictus on 25 Dec, although as it also shows Christmas on this date so we don't know which celebration was older. Even if it was Sol Invictus, it wasn't even the major celebration in honour of him in the later part of the year. There was a bigger one in October, and others throughout the year. The idea that Christians thought it would be a winning marketing ploy to appropriate a relatively new, minor celebration seems a bit far fetched [Again it is worth noting that the dating to 25 Dec seems to predate both this calendar and any desire to celebrate it].
4. There were numerous birthdays calculated for Jesus, it is possible, that 25 Dec won out because of the solstice as it is more auspicious. There is nothing intrinsically "pagan" about objective cosmological events though. So it is possible Christians found it significant for the same reasons some pagans did.
5. It is possible that Christmas became a popular celebration because of its dating. Winter celebrations have always been popular, so it would not be surprising that the Christianising world started to celebrate the date and, over time, it replaced other winter festivals. There was no central figure with a marketing plan starting a multi-century process across a vast and diverse Empire though. Despite a common trope, Constantine didn't start it because it was celebrated in the Western Empire before it ever reached Constantinople.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Christmas is the day we choose to celebrate the birth of Christ. That part is not pagan. However there are pagan symbols that are included in it, unbeknownst to most believers. Such as the Christmas tree and wreath.

I like that you say X-mass is the day 'we' ( people ) chose....... because it is Not chosen in Scripture.
Jesus was 33 1/2 yrs. old when he died on the spring date in the Jewish month of Nisan the 14th day.
That would make Jesus turning 34 in the Fall or Autumn of the year.

The winter celebration (Saturnalia) existed long before 1st-century Christianity, celebrated by non-Christians, non-Jews.
The Jews did Not celebrate birthdays, so Jesus and the apostles would Not have celebrated.
Jesus only asked to have his annual day of death remembered - Luke 22:19

 

[Twilight Hue]

Usually, we start by presenting evidence that something is true...

Christmas trees appeared in 16th C Germany, and only became popular in the 18th C - why would they be influenced by what Egyptians did with palm trees 3000 years before this? If it was a Roman tradition, why is it only appearing in 16th C Germany rather than one of the more Roman parts of Europe or the Mediterranean?

If you mean Christmas, a rough overview would be:

1. The dating of Christmas to 25 Dec seems to long precede any desire to turn it in to a popular feast day. Early Christians liked to calculate important dates, and it is not really surprising the birth of Jesus would be one of these. The desire to calculate doesn't necessarily mean a desire to celebrate though. The dating, in a convoluted way, results from the dating of Easter and the conception of Jesus on 25 March - 9 months before 25 Dec. This happened at a time where many Christians were still very much trying to distance themselves from pagans, and the idea that hardline sects who preferred to die than engage in 'pagan' practices were also deliberately appropriating pagan days for marketing purposes is a bit of a stretch.
2. Saturnalia and Christmas continued to be celebrated alongside each other on different days for a century or two. As such, it is hard to paint Christmas as a replacement for Saturnalia.
3. There is a calendar that shows the games in honour of [Sol] Invictus on 25 Dec, although as it also shows Christmas on this date so we don't know which celebration was older. Even if it was Sol Invictus, it wasn't even the major celebration in honour of him in the later part of the year. There was a bigger one in October, and others throughout the year. The idea that Christians thought it would be a winning marketing ploy to appropriate a relatively new, minor celebration seems a bit far fetched [Again it is worth noting that the dating to 25 Dec seems to predate both this calendar and any desire to celebrate it].
4. There were numerous birthdays calculated for Jesus, it is possible, that 25 Dec won out because of the solstice as it is more auspicious. There is nothing intrinsically "pagan" about objective cosmological events though. So it is possible Christians found it significant for the same reasons some pagans did.
5. It is possible that Christmas became a popular celebration because of its dating. Winter celebrations have always been popular, so it would not be surprising that the Christianising world started to celebrate the date and, over time, it replaced other winter festivals. There was no central figure with a marketing plan starting a multi-century process across a vast and diverse Empire though. Despite a common trope, Constantine didn't start it because it was celebrated in the Western Empire before it ever reached Constantinople.

I dunno where you got that information from, but alright.

For me, I'll just stick with what the experts are saying.

 

[Augustus]

I dunno where you got that information from, but alright.

For me, I'll just stick with what the experts are saying.

That is from actual experts, the kind who publish in peer-reviewed journals, not a random history channel article or the "expertise" of a horticultural youth outreach worker whose other works of online scholarship include "let's grow grapes in containers" and "Go outside and play in the winter - it's good for you!"

While the masterpiece "Dogscaping: landscaping for you and your dog" would be enough to establish the bona fides of any expert historian, if you actually would like to know what experts say on this issue then these will give you a start.

Steven Hijmans, "Sol Invictus, the Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas"

Steven Hijmans, "Sol Invictus, the Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas"

www.academia.edu

The Origins of the Christmas Date: Some Recent Trends in Historical Research

Early Christian Chronology and the Origins of the Christmas Date: In Defense of the "Calculation Theory"

While the view that the celebration of Christmas on 25 December came about as the product of pagan influence continues to enjoy unbounded popularity, the rivaling “calculation theory” seems to have lost ground, owing in part to the recent criticism

www.academia.edu

Project MUSE - From Sukkot to Saturnalia: The Attack on Christmas in Sixteenth-Century Chronological Scholarship

muse.jhu.edu

 

[Twilight Hue]

That is from actual experts, the kind who publish in peer-reviewed journals, not a random history channel article or the "expertise" of a horticultural youth outreach worker whose other works of online scholarship include "let's grow grapes in containers" and "Go outside and play in the winter - it's good for you!"

While the masterpiece "Dogscaping: landscaping for you and your dog" would be enough to establish the bona fides of any expert historian, if you actually would like to know what experts say on this issue then these will give you a start.

Steven Hijmans, "Sol Invictus, the Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas"

Steven Hijmans, "Sol Invictus, the Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas"

www.academia.edu

The Origins of the Christmas Date: Some Recent Trends in Historical Research

Early Christian Chronology and the Origins of the Christmas Date: In Defense of the "Calculation Theory"

While the view that the celebration of Christmas on 25 December came about as the product of pagan influence continues to enjoy unbounded popularity, the rivaling “calculation theory” seems to have lost ground, owing in part to the recent criticism

www.academia.edu

Project MUSE - From Sukkot to Saturnalia: The Attack on Christmas in Sixteenth-Century Chronological Scholarship

muse.jhu.edu

I thought this was about the origins of the Christmas tree. Not the origins of Christmas itself.

 

[The Hammer]

"Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, many ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness."

History of Christmas Trees ‑ Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s.

www.history.com

 

[Augustus]

I thought this was about the origins of the Christmas tree. Not the origins of Christmas itself.

Wasn't sure which question you were asking earlier.

I personally was surprised to find much of its early origins lay in ancient Egypt and Roman culture and later introduced to the states via the Germans.

History of Christmas Trees ‑ Symbolism, Traditions & Trivia | HISTORY

The history of Christmas trees goes back to the symbolic use of evergreens in ancient Egypt and Rome and continues with the German tradition of candlelit Christmas trees first brought to America in the 1800s.

www.history.com

"Throughout history, people from all societies have decorated using seasonal flora from their local environment. Therefore Christmas trees are pagan"

 

[Augustus]

This is an interesting article from 130 years ago, primarily because it documents contemporary trends.

German Christmas and the Christmas tree

Some key points:

The earliest documented tree was in Strasbourg in 1605, and the tradition was very localised. They seem to have been purely decorative.

It wasn’t really till the 18th c that trees became common in some other areas.

Even in the late 19thC when the article was written, Christmas trees were still only common in certain parts of Germany, primarily the Protestant regions. Catholic regions were said to prefer nativity scenes.

There were myths about Luther inventing the Christmas tree, but this offers some evidence that it may have been a Protestant tradition.

This is hard to square with the idea that they represent some common pagan tradition that had been preserved through the ages.

Most interestingly, given the common claim that Christmas trees are a relic of a purported pagan reverence for evergreens, numerous places had traditions involving deciduous trees or branches, particularly trying to make them flower in winter.

This was purportedly connected with a “Christmas miracle” of trees blooming in winter that featured in numerous folk tales dating back to the 14th c.

Ultimately there are many stories about the origins of Christmas trees, but they are mostly a tradition that only began a couple of hundred years ago and have no real connection with the ancient past.

 

[Bear Wild]

This is hard to square with the idea that they represent some common pagan tradition that had been preserved through the ages.

Of course, you know all too well that there were never any written documents by pagans about paganism. All of the written information only comes from the colonizing Christian religions. Before Christianity the people were indigenous with the land. The big mistake on interpreting pre-Christian religions is to see them through the mind set and metaphysics of the transcendental Christian and contemporary western view of the world. There was a spiritual connection with the land dominated by the forests. The sacred nature of trees continued long throughout the Anglo-Saxon world in England. We do know that although they did not write down anything their relationships with the land the oral stories did not stop there. They continued in the folklore, the fairytales, and rituals. How long these relationships lasted is well represented in similar cultures of Ireland and Iceland. I agree that the person dedicating the tree to celebrate Christmas was doing so for celebrating Christianity and not paganism. But the importance and connection of trees and the land is more of an indigenous metaphysics which did not die out in the conversion to Christianity. The importance of trees and grooves was well known demonstrated by the stories of St. Martin destroying sacred groves.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Of course, you know all too well that there were never any written documents by pagans about paganism.

There are plenty of written documents about Roman paganism. Not only do we have documents outlining various rituals, we have commentary from historians and philosophers on Roman paganism.

 

[Augustus]

Of course, you know all too well that there were never any written documents by pagans about paganism. All of the written information only comes from the colonizing Christian religions

The main point was noting how modern the tradition was. It was something that only caught on in the 18th and 19th c.

Enough people wrote about Christmas to know it wasn’t a Germanic tradition prior to this, which is ultimately what the claim relies on.

It's not like there are an absence of alternative reasons someone might have a tree. Whether they were recreating the “tree of paradise” from seasonal mystery plays, mirroring local myths about trees miraculously blooming in deepest winter, or just making a pretty decoration for the kids we will never really know the exact reason it caught on (my guess is it’s mostly the latter).

As well as the large time gap, that it seemed to be something more common in Protestant households also makes it seem unlikely to have been a pagan tradition kept alive in a different form.

Before Christianity the people were indigenous with the land

This is a bit of a romanticisation imo.

They lived in towns and villages same as they did after they became Christians.

As much as any pre-modern group, Pagans exploited the land and destroyed forests for agricultural and commercial reasons when it suited them.

They also weren’t even indigenous in most places, they migrated and colonised.

The big mistake on interpreting pre-Christian religions is to see them through the mind set and metaphysics of the transcendental Christian and contemporary western view of the world. There was a spiritual connection with the land dominated by the forests. The sacred nature of trees continued long throughout the Anglo-Saxon world in England. We do know that although they did not write down anything their relationships with the land the oral stories did not stop there. They continued in the folklore, the fairytales, and rituals. How long these relationships lasted is well represented in similar cultures of Ireland and Iceland. I agree that the person dedicating the tree to celebrate Christmas was doing so for celebrating Christianity and not paganism. But the importance and connection of trees and the land is more of an indigenous metaphysics which did not die out in the conversion to Christianity. The importance of trees and grooves was well known demonstrated by the stories of St. Martin destroying sacred groves.

I certainly agree that we shouldn’t assume pagans thought anything like modern folk, but medieval Christians also thought very differently.

As a result, people often assume anything that doesn’t make sense to our modern mind must be a pagan relic as if these societies were incapable of innovation as opposed to appropriation.

Liking trees isn’t inherently pagan though, neither is finding forests mystical or spooky. I'm sure you know that from when you were a kid.

Modern humans like trees too, and this isn’t simply because their ancestors were pagans who taught themselves to like trees. Humans intuitively have an affinity with nature and turn this into aesthetics, stories and traditions of all kinds.

I agree cultures and mythologies don’t instantly die out. But that doesn't mean they are the driving factor in all behaviours carried out in perpetuity.

At some point, the ancient Egyptian or the medieval German mythos stops being the most likely reason a contemporary person likes trees.

No doubt some modern interior decorator will find something novel to do with a tree or shrub every now and again, but this isn’t being driven by the sacred connection between pagans and the land. It’s just an aesthetic.

It’s easy to construct a narrative that suggests it’s really a subconscious attempt to recreate a sacred grove and it’s completely unfalsifiable. Ultimately, it’s mostly just us projecting our preferences onto other people. Projecting paganism on to a 21st C person, is little different from doing the same thing to a 19th C person.

 

[Bear Wild]

There are plenty of written documents about Roman paganism. Not only do we have documents outlining various rituals, we have commentary from historians andthe philosophers on Roman paganism.

Yes, but this is in reference to the Germanic people and trees. Also, there is growing evidence that when the Greek myths were written down, they lost much of their experiential meaning and embodiment.