Is Christmas Pagan?

[Riders]

Also what other God's Godesses and messiah s were born December 25th

 

[David1967]

Christmas is the day we choose to celebrate the birth of Christ. That part is not pagan. However there are pagan symbols that are included in it, unbeknownst to most believers. Such as the Christmas tree and wreath.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Also what other God's Godesses and messiah s were born December 25th

Christmas, or Christ Mass, is the Christian celebration of the Feast of the Nativity. In recent years, it has burst through its religious confines to become a secular holiday with its own secular stories and myths and traditions.

In the 3rd century, when Christians first began celebrating the Nativity, different bishops held the feast on different days. December 25 was one of those days. Those bishops that favored Dec 25 did so because it was nine months after the Feast of the Annunciation (Jesus' conception) on March 25. For reasons I don't understand very well, this is because on the Justinian Calendar, March 25 was the equinox, and the early church believed the earth was created on that day, and that Jesus died on that day, and that people died on the same day they are conceived. But at any rate, that was the reasoning behind Dec 25.

Later in history, those who followed Mithraism established the holiday of Dec 25 as the birthday of Mithras. This doesn't mean they stole Dec 25 from the Christians. It was simply coincidental.

And it was after that that the Christian bishops decided it would be best if all Christians celebrated the Nativity on the same day, and made Dec 25 the universal holy day for the whole church.

It was in the 19th century that the secular roots of Christmas came into being through two works of literature. The first was Charles Dicken's "A Christmas Carol" and the second was the poem "The Night Before Christmas."

 

[SalixIncendium]

Christmas is not pagan, and I don't know or care what other deities and messiahs were born on December 25th, because it has no bearing on the holiday.

However, there is evidence that the celebration of Christ's birth was moved to the winter solstice, and some of the rituals were inspired by pagan ones to facilitate conversion of non-Christians to Christianity,

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Merry Christmas to you, too, as this is obviously your gift to us each year.

 

[Riders]

Merry Christmas too,

 

[Bear Wild]

Also what other God's Godesses and messiah s were born December 25th

Christmas has become whatever you want it to be. The term Christmas is clearly Christian, but this time of the year is celebrated by many different paths and ways from Atheists who love the season and its secular aspects, pagans who celebrated this time of year in the past and now contemporary pagans now celebrate it, Christians who celebrate it (although at one time protestants wanted to eliminate the celebration), Jewish people celebrate this time of year. The word in the US is so integrated with this time of year that many different people of different faiths or no faith wish each other a merry Christmas even if they do not believe in Christ. Maybe you should just let us know how you celebrate Christmas/yule and no longer worry about who came up with this season first. The answer to that is too complicated and too poorly documented as well as documented unfairly. blended over time to matter now. Just have a happy Pagan Christmas/Yule

 

[Augustus]

Such as the Christmas tree

Very debatable that something that emerged in Early Modern Germany was in fact some genuinely pagan hangover that had survived for many centuries after the decline of paganism.

Decorations, trees and seasonal flora, etc. are not inherently "pagan"

 

[Augustus]

here is evidence that the celebration of Christ's birth was moved to the winter solstice, and some of the rituals were inspired by pagan ones to facilitate conversion of non-Christians to Christianity,

Which rituals would you say are genuinely unbroken continuities of pagan ritual?

 

[Augustus]

what other God's Godesses and messiah s were born December 25th

I guess there would not be a great deal more than zero.

There might be the odd one here and there, but probably about the same number as if you picked any other random day of the year and trawled through all of human history trying to find examples.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Christmas is the day we choose to celebrate the birth of Christ. That part is not pagan. However there are pagan symbols that are included in it, unbeknownst to most believers. Such as the Christmas tree and wreath.

Christmas trees were introduced in the 16th century, centuries after the last pagans were converted to Christianity.

 

[Augustus]

Christmas trees were introduced in the 16th century, centuries after the last pagans were converted to Christianity.

This is a problem with most of the "X is pagan" arguments, they are just a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc assumption.

They conflate the idea that because something like a tree or the sun or a solstice has been used in pagan worship, they are therefore fundamentally pagan in nature and have remained so in perpetuity.

The sun is still just the sun though, and a tree is still a tree. Their uses, impacts and symbolism extends far beyond being an object of pagan veneration.

That people whose lives were massively impacted by the seasons noticed the sun and solstices is hardly surprising. That people will use seasonal flora for decoration is also eminently predictable.

In classical antiquity, even pagan iconography representing the Sun wasn't necessarily pagan, it was just decoration. This serves as a good example for how things that just because pagans venerated X, it doesn't mean all uses of X must be intrinsically or meaningfully "pagan":

In the Roman Empire. the nature of Sol was ambiguous. As a heavenly body. the sun was often used-together with Luna-as a cosmic symbol or allegory for eternity...

This symbolic use of Sol and Luna was common in a wide range of religious contexts in the Roman Empire: we find it on Jupiter Dolichenus triangles. Mithraic reliefs, Danubian rider plaques. the ependytes of Aphrodite of Aphrodisias. Jupiter columns. etc

In all these images Sol is clearly not depicted as a god to be celebrated with feast days and chariot-races, but as a cosmic body whose presence contributes to the framing and defining of the nature of the main scene...

Sol and Luna, then. not only symbolize Eternity but also explain how cosmic stability can be sustained despite temporal fluctuations...

That this was the case should not surprise us. The cosmic reality and astronomical predictability of Sol was and is incontestable-not a matter of religion but a matter of fact. It was to those incontestable aspects of the sun and moon to which Sol and Luna or Sol alone refer. directly as well as metaphorically, in the contexts we have just discussed. It is also those aspects of Sol which are important in. for instance. the mosaic floors of the late antique synagogues of Hammath Tiberias. Beth Alpha. and elsewhere. In the large. central panel of the floor of the main nave we find Sol in the traditional Roman iconography on a frontal chariot within a zodiac and with the four seasons in the corners.

[This] anthropomorphic representation of the visible "planet," and as such is a cosmic symbol rather than a polytheistic god. further emphasized by the zodiac around him and the four seasons accompanying him. This is the most plausible interpretation-given the problems which would arise if we were to treat these as images of the Roman polytheistic sun god. forcing us to explain why he dominated the floors of no fewer than four synagogues-and any lingering doubts about that interpretation were removed by the recent discovery of yet another mosaic floor of this type, in which the head of Sol was replaced by a radiant disc

The most prolific imagery related to Sol (and Luna) treats the sun not as a god but as symbol. and despite the polytheistic religious source of the anthropomorph iconography employed. the actual cosmic-symbolic connotations of this imagery were so well understood that it could be employed without significant variations by pagans. Jews, and Christians alike...

The astronomical reality of the sun and the moon precluded such symbolism from being exclusively pagan. and the evidence of the De solstitiis. as well as the numerous passages from a wide range of homilies collected by Heim (1999). suggests that it was readily adopted by Christians. It is cosmic symbolism of this type which inspired the Church leadership in Rome to elect the winter solstice. December 25. as the birthday of Christ. and the summer solstice. June 25. as that of John the Baptist. supplemented by the equinoxes as their lrespective dates of conception. While they were aware that pagans celebrated a festival in honour of Sol Invictus on that day. this did not concern them. and it certainly did not play any role in their choice of date for Christmas.

S Hijmans- Sol Invictus, the winter solstice. and the origins of Christmas

 

[Bear Wild]

This is a problem with most of the "X is pagan" arguments, they are just a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc assumption.

They conflate the idea that because something like a tree or the sun or a solstice has been used in pagan worship, they are therefore fundamentally pagan in nature and have remained so in perpetuity.

The sun is still just the sun though, and a tree is still a tree. Their uses, impacts and symbolism extends far beyond being an object of pagan veneration.

That people whose lives were massively impacted by the seasons noticed the sun and solstices is hardly surprising. That people will use seasonal flora for decoration is also eminently predictable.

In classical antiquity, even pagan iconography representing the Sun wasn't necessarily pagan, it was just decoration. This serves as a good example for how things that just because pagans venerated X, it doesn't mean all uses of X must be intrinsically or meaningfully "pagan":

In the Roman Empire. the nature of Sol was ambiguous. As a heavenly body. the sun was often used-together with Luna-as a cosmic symbol or allegory for eternity...

This symbolic use of Sol and Luna was common in a wide range of religious contexts in the Roman Empire: we find it on Jupiter Dolichenus triangles. Mithraic reliefs, Danubian rider plaques. the ependytes of Aphrodite of Aphrodisias. Jupiter columns. etc

In all these images Sol is clearly not depicted as a god to be celebrated with feast days and chariot-races, but as a cosmic body whose presence contributes to the framing and defining of the nature of the main scene...

Sol and Luna, then. not only symbolize Eternity but also explain how cosmic stability can be sustained despite temporal fluctuations...

That this was the case should not surprise us. The cosmic reality and astronomical predictability of Sol was and is incontestable-not a matter of religion but a matter of fact. It was to those incontestable aspects of the sun and moon to which Sol and Luna or Sol alone refer. directly as well as metaphorically, in the contexts we have just discussed. It is also those aspects of Sol which are important in. for instance. the mosaic floors of the late antique synagogues of Hammath Tiberias. Beth Alpha. and elsewhere. In the large. central panel of the floor of the main nave we find Sol in the traditional Roman iconography on a frontal chariot within a zodiac and with the four seasons in the corners.

[This] anthropomorphic representation of the visible "planet," and as such is a cosmic symbol rather than a polytheistic god. further emphasized by the zodiac around him and the four seasons accompanying him. This is the most plausible interpretation-given the problems which would arise if we were to treat these as images of the Roman polytheistic sun god. forcing us to explain why he dominated the floors of no fewer than four synagogues-and any lingering doubts about that interpretation were removed by the recent discovery of yet another mosaic floor of this type, in which the head of Sol was replaced by a radiant disc

The most prolific imagery related to Sol (and Luna) treats the sun not as a god but as symbol. and despite the polytheistic religious source of the anthropomorph iconography employed. the actual cosmic-symbolic connotations of this imagery were so well understood that it could be employed without significant variations by pagans. Jews, and Christians alike...

The astronomical reality of the sun and the moon precluded such symbolism from being exclusively pagan. and the evidence of the De solstitiis. as well as the numerous passages from a wide range of homilies collected by Heim (1999). suggests that it was readily adopted by Christians. It is cosmic symbolism of this type which inspired the Church leadership in Rome to elect the winter solstice. December 25. as the birthday of Christ. and the summer solstice. June 25. as that of John the Baptist. supplemented by the equinoxes as their lrespective dates of conception. While they were aware that pagans celebrated a festival in honour of Sol Invictus on that day. this did not concern them. and it certainly did not play any role in their choice of date for Christmas.

S Hijmans- Sol Invictus, the winter solstice. and the origins of Christmas

I agree it is not worth claiming anything as being pagan. Comparative religions show how ubiquitous all of these symbols are. There is no doubt that "pagans" celebrated festivals associated with cycles and movements of the sun and moon. We know they were very attuned to lunar eclipses in ritual building. That said Christians also were aware of cycles of the sun and moon. They were aware of the equinox and solstice. The truth is that it was more the way they celebrated the world rather than claiming ownership. These seasons and symbols belong to everyone who will celebrate it in their own way. I celebrate "Christmas" as a pagan because of the symbols of magic, spirits of Christmas, a god like man with a chariot pulled by flying reindeer, the evergreen tree as sacred tree, and spreading goodwill. There is no Christ in my Christmas celebrations. I know so many atheists who celebrate this season too. It is time to stop this was pagan and appreciate that we all can celebrate this special season in our own ways and not just Christian.

Interestingly it was protestant Christians that first proclaimed Christmas was pagan. England almost lost its christmas celebrations in its past.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Interestingly it was protestant Christians that first proclaimed Christmas was pagan. England almost lost its christmas celebrations in its past.

Right. If I remember correctly, the Anglicans (Church of England) celebrated Christmas and the Puritans believed the Anglicans were too Catholic.

 

[Bear Wild]

Right. If I remember correctly, the Anglicans (Church of England) celebrated Christmas and the Puritans believed the Anglicans were too Catholic.

In England after the fall of Charles I and the governing went to Oliver Cromwell there was a movement to stop the celebrations of Christmas in England. Thankfully they were not successful. It was I think more directed toward the Catholics in particular but it certainly was an attempt to remove the "pagan" of England.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In England after the fall of Charles I and the governing went to Oliver Cromwell there was a movement to stop the celebrations of Christmas in England. Thankfully they were not successful. It was I think more directed toward the Catholics in particular but it certainly was an attempt to remove the "pagan" of England.

I dont' think they wanted to get rid of Christmas because it was pagan. They wanted to get rid of it because it was Catholic.

 

[Bear Wild]

I dont' think they wanted to get rid of Christmas because it was pagan. They wanted to get rid of it because it was Catholic.

But they thought Catholics retained pagan aspects that needed to be removed. It has been a while when I read about this, but they wanted to purify the faith from residual heathen and pagan remanent. I can't remember if they used the word pagan however but the references were clear that it was not Christian which would place the practices with the old ways.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But they thought Catholics retained pagan aspects that needed to be removed. It has been a while when I read about this, but they wanted to purify the faith from residual heathen and pagan remanent. I can't remember if they used the word pagan however but the references were clear that it was not Christian which would place the practices with the old ways.

Mostly, they were simply sola scriptura, and didn't approve of traditions in teh Church of England that could not be found in scripture.

Why did Puritans oppose Christmas?

"Essentially, the Puritans—which is what the Plymouth Pilgrims were—wanted to “purify” the Anglican Church of its Roman Catholic vestiges, and in particular, things that could not be found in the Bible. Christmas was outlawed because it was never mentioned in scripture."

Who Waged the Very First ‘War on Christmas’?

 

[Augustus]

Interestingly it was protestant Christians that first proclaimed Christmas was pagan.

You are right that most of the "Christmas/Easter is pagan" tropes originated in Protestant Anti-Catholic polemic.

I think the actual first (at least recorded) would have been a c.12th C Orthodox scribe who speculated Catholic Christmas was on 25th Dec (rather than an Orthodox date in January) because they wanted to appropriate the celebration of Sol Invictus (in reality 25th Dec was neither a well established or particularly important festival for Sol on that date).

Same thing, just slightly different sectarian dynamics

In England after the fall of Charles I and the governing went to Oliver Cromwell there was a movement to stop the celebrations of Christmas in England. Thankfully they were not successful. It was I think more directed toward the Catholics in particular but it certainly was an attempt to remove the "pagan" of England.

Mostly, they were simply sola scriptura, and didn't approve of traditions in teh Church of England that could not be found in scripture.

It's lack of Biblical basis also led to it being perceived as "superstitious Popery", and pagan/Catholic were closely associated. If it wasn't in the Bible, the devious Catholics must have got it from somewhere.

Ironically, for those who want to "put the Christ back into Christmas", it was a drunken, licentious public celebration which probably was a major reason behind wanting to end it and associate it with drunken, licentious "pagan" public celebrations.

IIRC, the celebration of Christmas sort of died out for a few centuries even after the Restoration of the monarchy, and only picked up again in the 19th C when it was reimagined as a family celebration somewhat similar to the modern version.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's lack of Biblical basis also led to it being perceived as "superstitious Popery", and pagan/Catholic were closely associated. If it wasn't in the Bible, the devious Catholics must have got it from somewhere.

Catholics are not sola scriptura. They believe that the authority is the church, which includes the Bible but also includes things like ecumenical councils. You can ask them how they believe this works, which is via Apostolic Succession. They will be happy to explain.

The celebration of the Nativity certainly didn't come from paganism, which wasn't interested in Jesus birth. In the 3rd century, bishops began including a feast of the nativity, but different bishops did it on different days. In the 4th century, all the bishops agreed on a common day for it. It really had nothing to do with paganism.

Now, you seem to wish to make this thread into a Catholic bashing thread. I won't participate in that. As a Jew, I personally have a great many problems with Christian theology. But I tend to think well of Christians for whom their faith brings them closer to God and assists them in becoming better people -- it doesn't matter squat to me if they are Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox.