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Is Christmas Pagan?
- Thread starter The Hammer
- Start date
No.
Christmas??? No, though pagan traditions have been absorbed into Christmas
Many other mid winter celebrations are held around the same time.
I think Christmas became 25 December (at least partially) when Christians wanted to entice folks into their religion with 'join our religion and you can keep your mid winter celebrations'.
Many other mid winter celebrations are held around the same time.
I think Christmas became 25 December (at least partially) when Christians wanted to entice folks into their religion with 'join our religion and you can keep your mid winter celebrations'.
rocala
Well-Known Member
Those sensible people of long ago were not going to lose the perks of mistletoe. Quite right IMO.
The question only makes sense if you presuppose that a festival distinctly belongs to one culture, or religion, or whatever.
I am inclined to think that originality doesn't exist and everything is a remix.
So, no, christmas is not pagan, though it was lifted and adapted from pagan rituals, reinterpreted and remixed.
I am inclined to think that originality doesn't exist and everything is a remix.
So, no, christmas is not pagan, though it was lifted and adapted from pagan rituals, reinterpreted and remixed.
So much irony in this statement.
McBell
Unbound
Are you proposing there was never a first festival?
Augustus
…
The dating of Christmas to 25 December seems to predate any actual celebration of Christmas. It probably wasn’t the actual day human Jesus was born on, but if it was a theological calculation rather than an attempt to manufacture a feast day it renders most if the “it’s pagan” narratives moot.
Numerous other dates were also proposed, and it is possible that the solstice date gained currency as the most auspicious, but ultimately derives from datings for Easter and the annunciation.
When it started to be celebrated as a festival, Saturnalia continued to be celebrated a few days earlier, and the idea there was a major Sol Invictus festival on 25th seems dubious. As such, it doesn’t seem to be a replacement for anything.
It is possible that, over time, it became a popular festival due to its dating. But this doesn’t mean the dating was chosen as a marketing ploy
Most of the Christmas traditions are far too modern or generic to be pagan hangovers too.
Ironically, the Christmas is pagan schtick is mostly the offshoot of Christian sectarianism and anti-Catholic bigotry that has been absorbed into pop culture as fact.
Numerous other dates were also proposed, and it is possible that the solstice date gained currency as the most auspicious, but ultimately derives from datings for Easter and the annunciation.
When it started to be celebrated as a festival, Saturnalia continued to be celebrated a few days earlier, and the idea there was a major Sol Invictus festival on 25th seems dubious. As such, it doesn’t seem to be a replacement for anything.
It is possible that, over time, it became a popular festival due to its dating. But this doesn’t mean the dating was chosen as a marketing ploy
Most of the Christmas traditions are far too modern or generic to be pagan hangovers too.
Ironically, the Christmas is pagan schtick is mostly the offshoot of Christian sectarianism and anti-Catholic bigotry that has been absorbed into pop culture as fact.
I think this spiel is going to be on your gravestone lol. The writing will become smaller and more cramped towards the bottom.
Yes. Or rather, yes-and-no.
Now, that is not a very satisfying or useful answer, so here is my reasoning:
If we define a festival as "a get-together of several people for celebration, without practical purpose, only for religious reasons", surely there must have been one first instance of that. (Ignoring the fact that we'll never actually find it, because it is lost in prehistory.) But surely, people got together before that; surely, they did it for non-relgious reasons; surely somebody performed some religious act on their own; surely some religious acts were performed that were not exactly celebrations; etc etc. Over time, this developed into something we might recognize as a festival.
So our "first-ever festival" is really just some arbitrary event that meets some artificial (adhoc) definition which is of limited use.
In general: I think that, with regard to the humanities, religion and history, our definitions are always somewhat arbitrary, make only limited sense in a specific context, you can almost always find counter-examples, and everything was developed, copied-and-adapted, "stolen" from other elements.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
In the 4th century AD, Christianity became the official religion of Rome. This honor was given as reward to the Christian soldiers who fought for Rome, and who were Rome's fiercest in battle; though we walk through the valley of the shadows of death. The empire was in a decline, with barbarians at the gates, and this was seen as a way to change with the times to survive.
Christianity was the official religion of Rome, not Rome the official secular of Christianity. Rome, as the overdog was pragmatic about the change and helped by merging pagan and Christian festivals. Christmas was about the birth of a child, who would be preached to all the nations of the Empire in parallel with established winter festivals. From the death of winter was a born a child.
As time went on, Rome would become the official secular of the Holy Roman Empire; sophisticated theocracy, converting the barbarians of Europe into Divine Kingdoms, until they too were part of the new empire. As history would show this lasted 1000 years from 400's to 1400's and then the empire would begin to divide; Protestant and Atheist movements. However, they would maintain common merged traditions like Christmas due to its diverse roots.
Christianity was the official religion of Rome, not Rome the official secular of Christianity. Rome, as the overdog was pragmatic about the change and helped by merging pagan and Christian festivals. Christmas was about the birth of a child, who would be preached to all the nations of the Empire in parallel with established winter festivals. From the death of winter was a born a child.
As time went on, Rome would become the official secular of the Holy Roman Empire; sophisticated theocracy, converting the barbarians of Europe into Divine Kingdoms, until they too were part of the new empire. As history would show this lasted 1000 years from 400's to 1400's and then the empire would begin to divide; Protestant and Atheist movements. However, they would maintain common merged traditions like Christmas due to its diverse roots.
This is a great observation.
Orbit
I'm a planet
The last thing I saw on this topic had Jesus being born in September.
When Was Jesus Born? It Wasn't Actually Dec. 25
The Bible doesn't say exactly when Jesus was born but a close reading of the text gives us clues to a more correct date than Dec. 25. And why was that date chosen away? It has nothing to do with pagan religions.
But the 21st is the solstice, not the 25th.
McBell
Unbound
Makes sense to me.
They did not want to directly compete with the solstice, so they opted for a few days after.
Augustus
…
Not traditionally in the Julian calendar.
Even if the calendars hadn't been different, there wasn't much to "compete" with anyway.
The day may have been auspicious or cosmologically significant, but it wasn't particularly important for any specific and well established major cultic practice or celebration.
Also, the assumption that the only reason early Christians could have wanted to calculate significant dates in Jesus' life was to create a major festival is pretty clearly flawed (even more so when combined with the additional assumption that this festival was cynically planned as a marketing ploy).
The Solstice was also typically an intercalary period that lasted several days to over a week. With festivities thrown throughout.
I prefer an 11 day celebration. 20Th to First.