Is Christmas Pagan?

[Riders]

I know I put this up every year, but I think it's a complicated topic.

 

[Eddi]

Yes and it is also a commercial event and a Christian one too

 

[Argentbear]

Most of the traditions of the holiday are Pagan

 

[Augustus]

No. Not in any meaningful way.

The dating isn’t “pagan” and most of the traditions we associate with it are fairly modern or at least emerged long after the decline of European paganism.

If people want to consider generic human activities like festivals, decorating with seasonal flora and having fun to be “pagan” that’s up to them.

Many of the “Christmas is pagan” tropes are simply recycled from (Anglo and German) Protestant anti-catholic polemic that often know passes for “common knowledge” rather than the product of sectarian bigotry that gave rise to it.

 

[Augustus]

Most of the traditions of the holiday are Pagan

Most of them are modern/early modern.

 

[JustGeorge]

It just wouldn't be the Christmas season without this thread, @Riders .

 

[Shaul]

I don't know about pagan but I am confident it isn't kosher.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No. Not in any meaningful way.
The dating isn’t “pagan” and most of the traditions we associate with it are fairly modern or at least emerged long after the decline of European paganism.
If people want to consider generic human activities like festivals, decorating with seasonal flora and having fun to be “pagan” that’s up to them.
Many of the “Christmas is pagan” tropes are simply recycled from (Anglo and German) Protestant anti-catholic polemic that often know passes for “common knowledge” rather than the product of sectarian bigotry that gave rise to it.

I find the x-mass dating is from non-Christian sources
Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he died in the Jewish spring month of Nisan the 14th day
That means Jesus would have turned 34 in the Autumn of the year

Plus, Jesus nor his apostles celebrated birthdays
Sacrificing candles on a cake is not from a biblical source

 

[ppp]

No. Not in any meaningful way.

The dating isn’t “pagan” and most of the traditions we associate with it are fairly modern or at least emerged long after the decline of European paganism.

If people want to consider generic human activities like festivals, decorating with seasonal flora and having fun to be “pagan” that’s up to them.

Many of the “Christmas is pagan” tropes are simply recycled from (Anglo and German) Protestant anti-catholic polemic that often know passes for “common knowledge” rather than the product of sectarian bigotry that gave rise to it.

How is "Christmas is pagan" anti Catholic? The coopting of local festivals by New rulers is standard operating procedures for invaders of any religion or non religions. That just good PR and marketing.

 

[Augustus]

I find the x-mass dating is from non-Christian sources
Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he died in the Jewish spring month of Nisan the 14th day
That means Jesus would have turned 34 in the Autumn of the year

Plus, Jesus nor his apostles celebrated birthdays
Sacrificing candles on a cake is not from a biblical source

The dating is from Christian theologians, you are correct it isn’t taken directly from the Bible but it would be erroneous to mistake Christianity for “The Bible”.

This is why many of the Christmas is pagan tropes emerged out of Protestant a anti Catholic polemic, anything not from the Bible alone must be “satanic paganism” or “the vilest popery”

 

[Augustus]

How is "Christmas is pagan" anti Catholic? The coopting of local festivals by New rulers is standard operating procedures for invaders of any religion or non religions. That just good PR and marketing.

Which "local festivals" do you think were "coopted" by which "new rulers"?

Re your other point, the Christmas is pagan tropes are often rehashed versions of historical sectarianism. That is the history of this topic, even if most people today are unaware of this.

For 17th C Puritans it was largely just bigotry against "vile popery". Later, the theologians of 19th C Religionsgeschichtliche Schule were scholars who made legitimate advances in the field of Biblical criticism, but were also influenced by the anti-Catholicism that existed in parts of late 19th C Germany (as well as some of the other flaws of 19th C historiography).

[Theories on the pagan origins of xmas are] essentially a product of the sixteenth-century Reformation, which inspired some Protestant, and in particular Calvinist, scholars to attack the historical basis of feasts like Christmas in new and pathbreaking ways. As recent research has shown, it is in the context of these early modern inquiries into the history of the liturgical year, which were often permeated by inter-confessional polemic, that the two basic approaches to understanding Christmas’s origins that continue to characterize twenty-first century debate on the subject first germinated. For lack of more appropriate labels, these two approaches may be referred to as the “History of Religions Theory” (henceforth: HRT) and the “Calculation Theory” (CT).

Roughly speaking, proponents of HRT interpret Christmas as a Christianized version or substitute for pagan celebrations that took place on the same date in the Roman calendar, the most widely cited example being the birthday of Sol Invictus on December 25.

By contrast, adherents to CT find evidence that the birthday of Christ was determined independently, by recourse to certain types of chronological speculation… Christmas on December 25 was derived from the day of Christ’s Passion, for which commemorative dates in the Julian calendar had already been established in the late-second or early-third centuries. Assuming that Christ spent a perfect number of years in the flesh, Christian scholars established a chronological parallelism between the conception in Mary’s womb (Annunciation) and his death on the cross, which were both assigned to March 25, the Roman date of the vernal equinox. In a further step, they added a schematically rounded number of nine months to the date of Jesus’ conception to arrive at his birth on the day of the winter solstice, December 25. The Origins of the Christmas Date: Some Recent Trends in Historical Research - C. P. E. Nothaft

I summarised some of the scholarship on the topic here a few years ago: Christmas 25 Dec: Scholarly views

 

[ppp]

Which "local festivals" do you think were "coopted" by which "new rulers"?

Just the standard ones. Planting festivals. Harvest festivals. Solstice festivals. Death observances. The fun stuff that most of the prior civilizations already had.

Re your other point, the Christmas is pagan tropes are often rehashed versions of historical sectarianism. That is the history of this topic, even if most people today are unaware of this.

When I was a kid other kids made fun of my big ears. They were jerks, but that does not change the face that I had freaking enormous ears. The fact that protestant detractors of Catholics exist does not change the fact that Christianity has big ears.

 

[Augustus]

Just the standard ones. Planting festivals. Harvest festivals. Solstice festivals. Death observances. The fun stuff that most of the prior civilizations already had.

Sio nothing specific just the idea that festivals are generically "pagan"?

When I was a kid other kids made fun of my big ears. They were jerks, but that does not change the face that I had freaking enormous ears. The fact that protestant detractors of Catholics exist does not change the fact that Christianity has big ears.

I personally don't think that the best people to go to for contemporary historical scholarship are 16th C Protestant fundamentalists, but we all have our own preferences about what we want to believe and the evidence we choose to base it on.

 

[ppp]

Sio nothing specific just the idea that festivals are generically "pagan"?

I don't know what you mean by that. "Pagan" is already a generic term. So, yes. Christianity hung painted tarps over the old pagan signs until enough people had either died out or forgotten.

I personally don't think that the best people to go to for contemporary historical scholarship are 16th C Protestant fundamentalists, but we all have our own preferences about what we want to believe and the evidence we choose to base it on.

Is it impossible to see things that way without first "wanting to believe " that conclusion? Everything is not, Either you're with me or against me. You know?

 

[Secret Chief]

Coming up next: Is Easter pagan?

 

[Argentbear]

Most of them are modern/early modern.

the yule log stems form ancient Germanic and Norse traditions "Yule" comes from the Old Norse word Jól, which refers to a festival that celebrated the sun's rebirth at the winter solstice
Wreaths were featured in ancient Roman celebrations of Saturnalia and were a symbol of rebirth and renewal
The ancient Greeks venerated mistletoe and celebrated it during the winter festival of Kronia it was a symbol of health and peace and to embrace your enemy or rivals under mistletoe at the festival was a sign of reconciliation
Stockings by the fireplace: In Norse folklore, Odin would deliver gifts to the worthy on the winter solstice by riding his flying horse, Sleipnir. Children would leave their shoes out for Odin's horse, and in return, Odin would leave them gifts.
Caroling comes from the tradition of wassailing where young people would travel door-to-door singing to wish people good health and ot collect food for the communal feast of the winter solstice.

 

[Secret Chief]

the yule log stems form ancient Germanic and Norse traditions "Yule" comes from the Old Norse word Jól, which refers to a festival that celebrated the sun's rebirth at the winter solstice
Wreaths were featured in ancient Roman celebrations of Saturnalia and were a symbol of rebirth and renewal
The ancient Greeks venerated mistletoe and celebrated it during the winter festival of Kronia it was a symbol of health and peace and to embrace your enemy or rivals under mistletoe at the festival was a sign of reconciliation
Stockings by the fireplace: In Norse folklore, Odin would deliver gifts to the worthy on the winter solstice by riding his flying horse, Sleipnir. Children would leave their shoes out for Odin's horse, and in return, Odin would leave them gifts.
Caroling comes from the tradition of wassailing where young people would travel door-to-door singing to wish people good health and ot collect food for the communal feast of the winter solstice.

I look forward to reading this again next year.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I know I put this up every year, but I think it's a complicated topic.

Wait until after Thanksgiving, please!

 

[Augustus]

the yule log stems form ancient Germanic and Norse traditions "Yule" comes from the Old Norse word Jól, which refers to a festival that celebrated the sun's rebirth at the winter solstice
Wreaths were featured in ancient Roman celebrations of Saturnalia and were a symbol of rebirth and renewal
The ancient Greeks venerated mistletoe and celebrated it during the winter festival of Kronia it was a symbol of health and peace and to embrace your enemy or rivals under mistletoe at the festival was a sign of reconciliation
Stockings by the fireplace: In Norse folklore, Odin would deliver gifts to the worthy on the winter solstice by riding his flying horse, Sleipnir. Children would leave their shoes out for Odin's horse, and in return, Odin would leave them gifts.
Caroling comes from the tradition of wassailing where young people would travel door-to-door singing to wish people good health and ot collect food for the communal feast of the winter solstice.

Most of these just aren't really true (or aren't supported by much evidence), and also don't relate to medieval Christian traditions either.

Which of these points do you think are actually attested to in the historical record and also represented medieval Christian "borrowing"?

Which primary source documents Odin giving gifts to the worthy for example? When did Northern European Christians start giving gifts in this manner?

The dating of Yule certainly has nothing to do with the dating of Christmas as Christianity was a Mediterranean religion not a Northern Europe one. The dating was not due to Saturnalia, as they both coexisted for centuries on different dates.

Earliest dated reference to a Yule log is later than that for a Christmas log? can read about it here:

Concerning Yule

Christmas may not have anything to do with Saturnalia or Mithras, but what about Yule?

kiwihellenist.blogspot.com

The gifts, stockings etc are modern trend that emerged in the 19th C, alongside the reindeer, etc. they are modern traditions not "pagan". Ditto kissing under the mistletoe is c18th C. Advent wreaths are likely North American. Christmas trees are mostly 19th C

Most things we associate with Christmas are actually fairly modern and are not things medieval Christians 'borrowed' from pagans. Not to mention that many of the "pagan" traditions aren't really supported by a great deal of evidence.

That people in similar environments used similar seasonal flora or created forms of symbolic meaning for this in the environment is hardly surprising.

For example on the Christmas tree:

This is an interesting article from 130 years ago, primarily because it documents contemporary trends.

German Christmas and the Christmas tree

Some key points:

The earliest documented tree was in Strasbourg in 1605, and the tradition was very localised. They seem to have been purely decorative.

It wasn’t really till the 18th c that trees became common in some other areas.

Even in the late 19thC when the article was written, Christmas trees were still only common in certain parts of Germany, primarily the Protestant regions. Catholic regions were said to prefer nativity scenes.

There were myths about Luther inventing the Christmas tree, but this offers some evidence that it may have been a Protestant tradition.

This is hard to square with the idea that they represent some common pagan tradition that had been preserved through the ages.

Most interestingly, given the common claim that Christmas trees are a relic of a purported pagan reverence for evergreens, numerous places had traditions involving deciduous trees or branches, particularly trying to make them flower in winter.

This was purportedly connected with a “Christmas miracle” of trees blooming in winter that featured in numerous folk tales dating back to the 14th c.

Ultimately there are many stories about the origins of Christmas trees, but they are mostly a tradition that only began a couple of hundred years ago and have no real connection with the ancient past.

 

[Augustus]

I look forward to reading this again next year.

'tis the season to rehash myths without checking 'em tra la la la la la la la laaaah