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Is Christmas Pagan?

ppp

ppp

Well-Known Member
Augustus said:
Why say things you know aren’t true?

I provided extensive evidence for in earlier posts. You even complained about it a couple of days ago and claimed to have “looked into it” it in your last post.
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If you think that the Invictus Sol position paper you cited represents "extensive evidence" in support of those three specific bullet points, then you do not understand that paper or the nature of evidence.

You claimed to have looked into my references. What did Pope Gregory order the bishop at Mellitus to do, and what the reason did he give?
 
ppp

ppp

Well-Known Member
ChieftheCef said:
Yeah they were a Jewsih sect starting out, just liek Judiasim was originally a portion of paganism. Yahweh is the deity of the Canaanites who is less than El. One day a bunch of Yahwhists who hated the Goddess tried their best to wipe the Goddess from their world. They didn't do so well, but still practically no one knows the Goddess.
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Are you claiming that Christianity is simply Jewish because it started off as a Jewish sect?
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
ppp said:
If you think that the Invictus Sol position paper you cited represents "extensive evidence" in support of those three specific bullet points, then you do not understand that paper or the nature of evidence.
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There are around 5 journal articles + other sources written by scholars that address these points.

What would you say is an acceptable number for a forum thread given you haven’t actually addressed any of them?

ppp said:
You claimed to have looked into my references. What did Pope Gregory order the bishop at Mellitus to do, and what the reason did he give?
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I replied to this earlier, with a scholarly sources, and you ignored it (again)

Augustus said:
Also, the letter doesn't really support your point anyway:

Very often quoted, but rarely in full, is a letter sent by Pope Gregory to Abbot Mellitus, who was about to join Augustine in England, in the year 601... Gregory then turns to festivals:

And because they have been used to slaughter many oxen in the sacrifices to devils, some solemnity must be exchanged for them on this account, as that on the day of the dedication, or the nativities of the holy martyrs whose relics are there deposited, they may build themselves huts of the boughs of trees, about those churches that have been turned to that use from temples, and celebrate the solemnity with religious feasting, and no more offer beasts to the Devil, but kill cattle to the praise of God in their eating, and return thanks to the Giver of all things . . .

To schedule the new feasts to coincide with the anniversary of the church’s dedication, or the feast-day of its patron saint, would almost inevitably break any previous links with the agricultural cycle or seasonal turning-points— the letter does not advise picking saints whose days match pagan festivals.

It is in any case doubtful that the policy outlined in this letter was widely adopted. In the same year, Pope Gregory wrote to King Ethelbert, urging him to ‘abolish the worship of idols and destroy their shrines’ (Bede; book 1, chapter 32). The few other relevant documents include no other reference to any policy of accommodation, but on the contrary mention several temples deliberately destroyed; archaeology has so far found no traces of pagan Saxon shrines under any churches.

Source: Oxford Dictionary of English Folklore
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Viker

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Riders said:
Caroling is Christian right?But I]ve heard some of the lyrics are Pagan are they?
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No. I've never heard of traditional carols being pagan. The First Noel is one of the most familiar and it is clearly Christian as is Silent Night.
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
ppp said:
do not believe that you are paying attention to what my points actually are.
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Thats a bit rich given your last few posts have all contained multiple obvious fibs about me not addressing your points

.
ppp said:
What is the specific point that I am using that letter support?
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You could always read the replies the first time…
ppp said:
You literally cannot admit that Tacitus described yule in Germania in 98 CE. Or that Pope Gregory I advised the Bishop at Mellitus that pagan temples be converted into churches and that pagan festivals, such as Yule-like celebrations, be "baptized" with Christian significance to ease the transition for converts. Or that Griped about the persistence of pagan festivals even after Christian appropriation had begun.
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That pagan temples be tuned into churches (no evidence of this ever happening) and that festivals are “baptised” (article explains that the opposite happened and new feasts broke the pagan cycle and Gregory basically called for the eradication rather than assimilation).


I notice you haven’t provided the Tacitus quotes for Yule yet either.

ppp said:
is not a substantive reply.
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People seem to take a grab bag of 3000 years of pagan/Christian history across vast distances of time and geography and then just pick and choose whatever matches their presumptions without any actual attempt to contextualise the information.

7th C Britain (or any part of Northern Europe at any time) has absolutely nothing to do with:

1. When and why was 25 Dec identified as the (supposed) date for Jesus' birth? (or if you prefer why is it in winter)
2. When and why did this become a liturgical feast day

If you think it has something to do with:

3. What are the origins of the Christmas rituals, decoration and festivities (trees, presents, etc.)

Feel free to present some evidence.

If you don't think it has anything to do with any of these, then I'm not sure what your point is, can you please explain what you consider to be the the pertinent point.


Also, the letter doesn't really support your point anyway:

Very often quoted, but rarely in full, is a letter sent by Pope Gregory to Abbot Mellitus, who was about to join Augustine in England, in the year 601... Gregory then turns to festivals:

And because they have been used to slaughter many oxen in the sacrifices to devils, some solemnity must be exchanged for them on this account, as that on the day of the dedication, or the nativities of the holy martyrs whose relics are there deposited, they may build themselves huts of the boughs of trees, about those churches that have been turned to that use from temples, and celebrate the solemnity with religious feasting, and no more offer beasts to the Devil, but kill cattle to the praise of God in their eating, and return thanks to the Giver of all things . . .

To schedule the new feasts to coincide with the anniversary of the church’s dedication, or the feast-day of its patron saint, would almost inevitably break any previous links with the agricultural cycle or seasonal turning-points— the letter does not advise picking saints whose days match pagan festivals.

It is in any case doubtful that the policy outlined in this letter was widely adopted. In the same year, Pope Gregory wrote to King Ethelbert, urging him to ‘abolish the worship of idols and destroy their shrines’ (Bede; book 1, chapter 32). The few other relevant documents include no other reference to any policy of accommodation, but on the contrary mention several temples deliberately destroyed; archaeology has so far found no traces of pagan Saxon shrines under any churches.

Source: Oxford Dictionary of English Folklore
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
Riders said:
Caroling is Christian right?But I]ve heard some of the lyrics are Pagan are they?
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A carol was simply a song that accompanied dancing in the medieval period.

Carols are not intrinsically Christian or even about religion.

Christmas carols are generally Christian though.
 
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