Is Christmas Pagan?

[metis]

You posit this yet don't back it up. You ask me for my backup. That's, sir, how we know you're just not on the right side of history.

I explained it in most post #94. We all use symbols, but what is a symbol in one religion or couture may not be used in some other religions and/or cultures. This is not difficult to understand.

A simple example of this is the swastika: Swastika - Wikipedia

 

[Kathryn]

Here's the deal:

I've had people tell me that I cannot have a Christmas tree in the house because of Jeremiah 10:3.4. I've had people try to tell me that Jesus wasn't born anywhere near December 25. I don't care about any of that because I don't decorate trees in my house or celebrate the birth of Jesus because of any pagan reason. I do them only for Christian reasons, and imagine this, I AM a Christian! My conscience is clear.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Celebrating Christmas in December is tied to the pagan tradition of holding celebrations for the winter solstice, which is around Dec 21.

The choice of December 25 had NOTHING to do with pagan festivals. I did answer this in this thread already, but you probably didn't see it so I'll answer again.

To understand, we have to back up a bit. The Christians in the Early Church were very superstitious about the vernal equinox. They simply were. They believed that the world was created on the vernal equinox. They believed Jesus died on the vernal equinox, and they believed that Mary conceived on the vernal equinox. The winter solstice is simply nine months after that, if you understand the point.

On the Julian calendar, the vernal equinox was March 25. Dec 25 is obviously nine months later.

You say the Church , but in fact you only refer to the Roman Catholic Church.

The schisms in the church had not yet happened. This is before the Oriental Orthodox split off, and before the east west split, and LONG before the Protestants came into being. Historians call the Church at this time Proto-Orthodox Christianity, but that church called itself the Catholic Church. Since there was only one church at that time, it seems perfectly reasonable to simply call it the Church.

Just an FYI, "Roman Catholic" is slang. Catholics are not offended by it. But if you to the Vatican website, you will

We Orthodox have Catholic faith and the full name of the Church is Orthodox Catholic Church.

I'm not here to dispute that.

We are Orthodox because Orthodox means 'that which was from the begining'.

No, actually it doesn't. Orthodox means "right belief." The term "orthodox" comes from the Greek words "orthos" (ὀρθός), meaning "straight," "correct," or "right," and "doxa" (δόξα), meaning "opinion," "glory," or "belief."

Eastern is what separates us geographically from others.

Of course. At least, originally. Today the various Orthodox churches have parishes all over the world.

Jesus was born in January , not in December.

You will have to take that up with other Christians. I have given the historical reasons why Dec 25 was chosen. I'm not really going to go beyond that.

Jesus died Friday, April 3, AD 33 at about 3 p.m.,

ROFL There is no possible way you can know that, but nice try. The truth is, Christians don't even know what year he died. 33 AD is an approximation.

That is why Easter does not have a date , because it is related to the spring equinox from the Julian calendar.

It is now. Go back to the second century, and it was observed based on the Jewish Passover. Today it is the first Sunday after the first full moon that occurs on or after the spring equinox (usually set as March 21). This is the same formula used by both the Western and Eastern Christian traditions. IOW nothing to do with the timing of the Jewish Passover. Meh. Things change -- doesn't bother me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yeah they were a Jewsih sect starting out, just liek Judiasim was originally a portion of paganism. Yahweh is the deity of the Canaanites who is less than El.

What I have read from various historians and archeologists is that "Yahweh" (we really don't know how to pronounce it) may indeed have originally been a Canaanite deity, but was associated with El, not beneath him.

Israelite theology was most likely HENOTHEISTIC, meaning, "There are many gods, but Yahweh is OUR God." And of course, it didn't stay that way. By the Babylonian exile, the idea had become that there were no other gods.

One day a bunch of Yahwhists who hated the Goddess tried their best to wipe the Goddess from their world. They didn't do so well, but still practically no one knows the Goddess.

This is just hogwash. In Middle Eastern paganism, there never was just one goddess. There were always many, just as there were many male deities. The Israelites were absolutely notorious for returning to polytheism. However, the prophets continued to harangue them for this, calling them to return to Adonai. But the prophets did not single out just one goddess for exclusion; they wanted all deities except Adonai excluded.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So it constitutes all of religion of which 1/3 is a lie (monotheism) It's not just monality, it is monality becoming duality. The aspects of the goddess is all of the facets of reality. That's why she's omnipotent. It is also a lie because badness composes goodness. But I'll be uncovering more of the truth based on modern science.

There are so many errors in this that I dont' know where to begin.

It's obvious that your own belief in The Goddess is impacting your ability to view this objectively. Absolutely none of the points I made (which you then quoted) had anything to do with a goddess. You keep interrupting discussions to try to turn them into new discussions on the Goddess.

It would be more appropriate for you to open your own threads on the Goddess.

 

[ppp]

The choice of December 25 had NOTHING to do with pagan festivals. I did answer this in this thread already, but you probably didn't see it so I'll answer again.

To understand, we have to back up a bit. The Christians in the Early Church were very superstitious about the vernal equinox. They simply were. They believed that the world was created on the vernal equinox. They believed Jesus died on the vernal equinox, and they believed that Mary conceived on the vernal equinox. The winter solstice is simply nine months after that, if you understand the point.

On the Julian calendar, the vernal equinox was March 25. Dec 25 is obviously nine months later.

Would you agree that theological considerations were primary in determining the date, especially through the symbolic connection between Jesus' conception and the vernal equinox, while pagan cultural influences contributed to and helped reinforce and popularize the celebration, particularly in the Roman Empire, where midwinter festivals were already prominent?

 

[ppp]

Here's the deal:

I've had people tell me that I cannot have a Christmas tree in the house because of Jeremiah 10:3.4. I've had people try to tell me that Jesus wasn't born anywhere near December 25. I don't care about any of that because I don't decorate trees in my house or celebrate the birth of Jesus because of any pagan reason. I do them only for Christian reasons, and imagine this, I AM a Christian! My conscience is clear.

Are these people primarily insiders to Christianity with their own theological reasons, or outsiders just yanking your chain? Or something else?

 

[Kathryn]

Are these people primarily insiders to Christianity with their own theological reasons, or outsiders just yanking your chain? Or something else?

I think they are insiders but I haven't heard a peep from them in a long time. They weren't outsiders or yanking my chain, I do know that. They were dead serious about it all.

 

[ppp]

I think they are insiders but I haven't heard a peep from them in a long time.

[nod] that is why I have primarily heard it as well. But even when I was a (Baptist) Christian, that sort of thing always struck me as overly self-satisfied, pretentious, and nitpicky with a healthy ladle of self-righteousness. Let them sniff their own farts, and enjoy your decorations!

 

[cataway]

acts 20 :29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30  and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."

with that you have been for warned. we should not be surprised that pagan things are now here to contend with

 

[Augustus]

Thus, a Christmas tree is no more "pagan" that the Bible itself.

Edit: sorry for some reason the forum software changed who I’d replied too.

If you read it, the previous post was not a reply to you.

Have deleted it

 

[ChieftheCef]

There are so many errors in this that I dont' know where to begin.

It's obvious that your own belief in The Goddess is impacting your ability to view this objectively.

Not really, show me don't tell.

Absolutely none of the points I made (which you then quoted) had anything to do with a goddess. You keep interrupting discussions to try to turn them into new discussions on the Goddess.

You show you can't approach someone else's level. How delusional aren't you?

It would be more appropriate for you to open your own threads on the Goddess.

No, my thoughts on the goddess are pertinent to the topic of whether Christianity is pagan. Which it is, it all stems from the same source. It's just also dead wrong about everything it didn't steal.

 

[ChieftheCef]

“Or that Pope Gregory I advised the Bishop at Mellitus that pagan temples be converted into churches and that pagan festivals, such as Yule-like celebrations, be "baptized" with Christian significance to ease the transition for converts”

I pointed out that the letter was not about baptising Yule like celebrations, and there is no evidence of churches being turned into temples and anyway it offers nothing related to Christmas.

I assume you are saying “aha! Co-opting paganis!”
No one has ever denied cultural continuity happened in general though, just that for claims that Christmas simply “co-opted” pagan stuff seems not to be true in anything other than the most generic sense where they “co-opted” the concept of feasting or decoration with seasonal flora, etc.

Sure there's not, faux white knight. Go genocide someone else.

 

[Augustus]

I asked what you think the specific point that I am using that letter to support. Can you state that point clearly and succinctly? Do you even know what it is?

Or that Pope Gregory I advised the Bishop at Mellitus that pagan temples be converted into churches and that pagan festivals, such as Yule-like celebrations, be "baptized" with Christian significance to ease the transition for converts”

I pointed out that the letter was not about baptising Yule like celebrations, and there is no evidence of churches being turned into temples and anyway it offers nothing related to Christmas.

I assume you are saying “aha! Co-opting paganis!”
No one has ever denied cultural continuity happened in general though, just that for claims that Christmas simply “co-opted” pagan stuff seems not to be true in anything other than the most generic sense where they “co-opted” the concept of feasting or decoration with seasonal flora, etc

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Would you agree that theological considerations were primary in determining the date, especially through the symbolic connection between Jesus' conception and the vernal equinox, while pagan cultural influences contributed to and helped reinforce and popularize the celebration, particularly in the Roman Empire, where midwinter festivals were already prominent?

I think that the superstitions the early church had regarding the vernal equinox were simply a cultural wide phenomenon. It is comparable to the way Americans see it as unthinkable to eat dog. It's not because it is a Christian thing or a Jewish thing or a pagan thing or a secular thing. It becomes an assumption in American Christianity because it is a cultural value that influences Christian thought here in the US.

 

[Augustus]

Sure there's not, faux white knight. Go genocide someone else.

Makes about as much sense as your previous nonsense about Easter…

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Or that Pope Gregory I advised the Bishop at Mellitus that pagan temples be converted into churches and that pagan festivals, such as Yule-like celebrations, be "baptized" with Christian significance to ease the transition for converts”
I pointed out that the letter was not about baptising Yule like celebrations, and there is no evidence of churches being turned into temples and anyway it offers nothing related to Christmas.
I assume you are saying “aha! Co-opting paganis!”
No one has ever denied cultural continuity happened in general though, just that for claims that Christmas simply “co-opted” pagan stuff seems not to be true in anything other than the most generic sense where they “co-opted” the concept of feasting or decoration with seasonal flora, etc

... and winter's Christmas has nothing to do with Christ birth.
The Bible's truth is: Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he was executed on the Jewish Spring calendar month of Nisan the 14th day
So, Jesus would have turned 34 in the Autumn of the year
The non-biblical Saturnalia festival for the most part was just re-named as Christ's mass

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You show you can't approach someone else's level.

Wow. Someone else's level? No arrogance here.

How delusional aren't you?

If you have evidence that I'm psychotic, please provide it.

No, my thoughts on the goddess are pertinent to the topic of whether Christianity is pagan. Which it is, it all stems from the same source. It's just also dead wrong about everything it didn't steal.

No, they aren't. The paganism that existed prior to the Christian Christmas didn't worship "The Goddess," but many gods and goddesses. That's an important distinction.

 

[Димитар]

The choice of December 25 had NOTHING to do with pagan festivals. I did answer this in this thread already, but you probably didn't see it so I'll answer again.

Why Is Christmas in December? | Britannica

No one knows when Jesus was born, so why celebrate his birth on December 25?

www.britannica.com

"The origins of the holiday and its December date lie in the ancient Greco-Roman world, as commemorations probably began sometime in the 2nd century. There are at least three possible origins for the December date. The Roman Christian historian Sextus Julius Africanus dated Jesus' conception to March 25 (the same date upon which he held that the world was created), which, after nine months in his mother’s womb, would result in a December 25 birth.

The origins of the holiday and its December date lie in the ancient Greco-Roman world, as commemorations probably began sometime in the 2nd century. There are at least three possible origins for the December date. The Roman Christian historian Sextus Julius Africanus dated Jesus’ conception to March 25 (the same date upon which he held that the world was created), which, after nine months in his mother’s womb, would result in a December 25 birth.

In the 3rd century, the Roman Empire, which at the time had not adopted Christianity, celebrated the rebirth of the Unconquered Sun (Sol Invictus) on December 25th. This holiday not only marked the return of longer days after the winter solstice but also followed the popular Roman festival called the Saturnalia (during which people feasted and exchanged gifts). It was also the birthday of the Indo-European deity Mithra, a god of light and loyalty whose cult was at the time growing popular among Roman soldiers.

The church in Rome began formally celebrating Christmas on December 25 in 336, during the reign of the emperor Constantine. As Constantine had made Christianity the effective religion of the empire, some have speculated that choosing this date had the political motive of weakening the established pagan celebrations. The date was not widely accepted in the Eastern Empire, where January 6 had been favored, for another half-century, and Christmas did not become a major Christian festival until the 9th century.

Read also this.

Celebrating Christmas on December 25 began as early as 2 century CE, history shows

Some historians say Christmas has been celebrated since 336 AD. But some evidence shows it actually started even earlier.

theconversation.com

This has much to so with the calendar and when was Christmas celebrated.

As you can see i bolded some words.

25th of December was celebrated untill the world adopted the Gregorian calendar.

So 25th of Decembar was according to the Julian calendar and NOT the Gregorian.

Celebrating Christmas on December 25 began as early as 2 century CE, history shows

Some historians say Christmas has been celebrated since 336 AD. But some evidence shows it actually started even earlier.

theconversation.com

Orthodox Christmas is on January 7th because that is when it was celebrated when the world used the Julian Calendar.
When the world changed to the Gregorian Calendar, in the 15th century, Christmas fell on what is now December 25th. The Orthodox just didn't change it. They kept Christmas on the Julian Calendar date.

We changed the date on 7th because of the 13 days difference that were made by accepting the Gregorian calendar.
We accepted the Gregorian calendar and so was solved the problem on celebrating Christmas on different dates.

The Julian calendar had one issue and that was the one day that was solved with 29th of February.

The Roman Church continued using the date of the Julian calendar and so in 2000 years for them the difference will be more then 13 days.

They still have the problem with that one day , regardless of the fact that the Pope Gregory brought it up.

I don't know why do they continue celebrating it on 25th when there is a clear problem with the Julian calendar.

To understand, we have to back up a bit. The Christians in the Early Church were very superstitious about the vernal equinox. They simply were.

Correct.

But the Roman Church.

Christmas was not celebrated officially because of the many disagreements within the Eastern Churches. About the date , the connection with the pagan festivals.

It is the only Church that has been against heresy for 2000 years and stood against it even within its own ranks.

You can always check that.

So to say that we were one in that sense is incorrect , since we see
disagreements from the Eastern Churches regarding the holiday.

They believed that the world was created on the vernal equinox. They believed Jesus died on the vernal equinox, and they believed that Mary conceived on the vernal equinox. The winter solstice is simply nine months after that, if you understand the point.

I have given you some information from late and mid 2nd century.

You are saying 'Believed' , but believed does not count since the NT is considered as the most reliable piece of History based on the evidence.

Don't mix History with belief.

You are a Jew and i fully reslect that.
You have your own belief , but that does not change what the NT is telling about dates , names , authors and so on so forth.

On the Julian calendar, the vernal equinox was March 25. Dec 25 is obviously nine months later.

This is not correct.

The date on the Julian Calendar in first century is late March— the 20th or 21st.
Which today is 3rd of April.
From March 20th to April 3th there are 12 days
From March 21st to April 3th There are 13 days.
The difference is one day which was solved with the 29th of February.

The schisms in the church had not yet happened. This is before the Oriental Orthodox split off, and before the east west split, and LONG before the Protestants came into being. Historians call the Church at this time Proto-Orthodox Christianity, but that church called itself the Catholic Church. Since there was only one church at that time, it seems perfectly reasonable to simply call it the Church.

No , there were many disagreements and you can obviously see them with not celebrating Christmas as official.
The Church of Rome celebrated it as official.

Just an FYI, "Roman Catholic" is slang. Catholics are not offended by it. But if you to the Vatican website, you will.

So is Orthodox in that sense.
Nevermind , they should not be offended.
I have no issues with Catholics , but rather with those who are responcsible for teachings about doctrine.
I adore Roman Catholic bishops.
I have talked with many of them and they understand that our issue is with Vatican.
But we certainly don't talk about issues only..
There are our brothers and sisters.
We don't deny them.
Neither do they deny us.
My objections are matter of doctrine and nothing personal to Roman Catholics.
We as Orthodox have much to learn from then about certain things.

No, actually it doesn't. Orthodox means "right belief." The term "orthodox" comes from the Greek words "orthos" (ὀρθός), meaning "straight," "correct," or "right," and "doxa" (δόξα), meaning "opinion," "glory," or "belief."

I think that you are more intelligent then this.

This was at that time.
It is still valid , but we have more terms now.

Orthodoxy - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

A widely accepted belief or theory is an orthodoxy. You could call the scientific theory of gravity an orthodoxy, since it's generally considered to be an established fact.

www.vocabulary.com

Of course. At least, originally. Today the various Orthodox churches have parishes all over the world.

Ofc , but the roots will always be on the East.

You will have to take that up with other Christians. I have given the historical reasons why Dec 25 was chosen. I'm not really going to go beyond that.

It was only chosen by the Roman Church.
I have provided also references

I don't disagree with you , but it seems that you don't know much about the disagreements from the East.

ROFL There is no possible way you can know that, but nice try. The truth is, Christians don't even know what year he died. 33 AD is an approximation.

Not so fast.

Abstract: JERUSALEM EARTHQUAKE OF 33 A.D.: EVIDENCE WITHIN LAMINATED MUD OF THE DEAD SEA, ISRAEL (2012 GSA Annual Meeting in Charlotte)

The NT talks about an Earthquake when Jesus died.

It is now. Go back to the second century, and it was observed based on the Jewish Passover. Today it is the first Sunday after the first full moon that occurs on or after the spring equinox (usually set as March 21). This is the same formula used by both the Western and Eastern Christian traditions. IOW nothing to do with the timing of the Jewish Passover. Meh. Things change -- doesn't bother me.

I meant in comparison to Christmas.
Christmas is always celebrated on a static date - 7th of January 7th.

I agree however with what you said.

I only said that it celebrated every year on different date acoording to your explenation.

It was not enough clear, i apologize.

 

[ppp]

I think that the superstitions the early church had regarding the vernal equinox were simply a cultural wide phenomenon. It is comparable to the way Americans see it as unthinkable to eat dog. It's not because it is a Christian thing or a Jewish thing or a pagan thing or a secular thing. It becomes an assumption in American Christianity because it is a cultural value that influences Christian thought here in the US.

Interesting thought. So you think that the superstitions around the vernal equinox were not limited to the learned, but was a belief that permeated all social classes?