Is Christmas Pagan?

[ChieftheCef]

Wow. Someone else's level? No arrogance here.

If you have evidence that I'm psychotic, please provide it.

You believe in a talking snake. Mic drop.

No, they aren't. The paganism that existed prior to the Christian Christmas didn't worship "The Goddess," but many gods and goddesses. That's an important distinction.

That's where you're showing your lack of information. I gave you a book, go read it, Wolf in Sheeps clothing

 

[ppp]

I assume you are saying “aha! Co-opting paganis!”

Could you approach my argument with less dismissiveness and make a sincere effort to steel man my position?

If you're unfamiliar with the term, steel manning is the opposite of straw manning. Rather than misrepresenting or oversimplifying an argument, the steel man technique involves presenting the strongest, most accurate version of the opposing viewpoint before engaging with it.

Put simply, can you articulate my argument in a way that I would agree fairly represents my perspective?

 

[ppp]

You believe in a talking snake. Mic drop.

How do you know that she believes in a talking snake?

That's where you're showing your lack of information. I gave you a book, go read it, Wolf in Sheeps clothing

Most people who have given any thought to a matter, will not take book recommendations from someone who has not first demonstrated that they are capable of an equally thoughtful discussion on that subject. At this point, you seem more of a shill for the book, than an informed and thoughtful interlocutor. With what you have presented to date, I would not considered any book recommendation from you. Perhaps @IndigoChild5559 has more forgiving standards.

 

[Augustus]

Could you approach my argument with less dismissiveness and make a sincere effort to steel man my position?

All cultures adapt, appropriate and borrow from their cultural environment.

As such Christmas includes significant cultural borrowings from “paganism”. Moreover, at least part of this was done consciously as a marketing strategy to convert pagans.

Anything incorrect there? If so please correct it.

Could you do the same then for my argument? You can’t think that that is what you have been doing so far in this thread surely?

 

[ppp]

First, I want to say that I am impressed that you made this attempt to steel man my position. There are a lot of people on this forum (and in real life) who would have scoff at eaven making the attempt. I appreciate you and your probity without reservation or irony.

All cultures adapt, appropriate and borrow from their cultural environment.

Correct.

As such Christmas includes significant cultural borrowings from “paganism”. Moreover, at least part of this was done consciously as a marketing strategy to convert pagans.

I would say partially consciously. But yes, there was intent. In the same way that when I plan a big party in college that I emulated the form of keggers that I has previously attended. While I brought my own unique flair, I still coopted prior art in order to appeal to teh expectations of the attendees. My goal was to raise funds for one of the charities at Lutheran House (Christian), but my form was still partially Fraternity (pagan).

Anything incorrect there? If so please correct it.

Very nice.
P1: All cultures adapt, appropriate and borrow from their cultural environment.
P2: Festivals existed throughout Europe
C: Festivals influenced the behavior and expectations of subsequent generations of the proximate cultures.

P1: From its inception Christianity had as a overriding goal the conversion and cooption of all other competing cultures.
P2: The tools available to Christianity were assimilation and conquest.
C: Christianity went hard on assimilation and conquest

P1: Festivals influenced the behavior and expectations of subsequent generations of the proximate cultures.
P2: Festivals are a tool of assimilation of a culture.
C: Christianity went hard on festivals as a tool for cnversion.

Could you do the same then for my argument? You can’t think that that is what you have been doing so far in this thread surely?

Honestly, I am having a hard time doing that. And maybe this is my fault for not listening closely enough, but you do not seem to have a central argument.
Initially, you thought I was just atlking about copying previous winter festivals. We took some time to get past that.
Then in #47 you said that Christians appropriated preexisting festivals as being "anti-Catholic polemics". But as I see appropriation as a sociological neutral term (not necessarily as a negative), that complain does not seem to apply to me or my position.

Then we got to this:

1. When and why was 25 Dec identified as the (supposed) date for Jesus' birth? (or if you prefer why is it in winter) - My view: Probably 2nd/3rd C. due to a variety of related exegetical traditions from Daniel, Luke, etc and other theological assumptions combined with a desire to calculate calendars of important dates.
2. When and why did this become a liturgical feast day - probably 4th C in Rome - hard to say exactly why, but timing around Nicaea may suggest connection to mono/dyaphysite internal disputes
3. What are the origins of the Christmas rituals, decoration and festivities (trees, presents, etc.) - My view: it's certainly possible there was some cultural continuity, but most of our modern traditions seem to be just that: modern. There is no evidence AFAIK, of any pagan tradition that was also a medieval tradition and is also a modern tradition. There is very little evidence of many of the supposed pagan traditions even being pagan traditions (Saturnalia was not associated with evergreens, etc).

And I just don't know what to do with that.

So I will just ask.. What is the position that you think I am attacking? What is the position that you are trying to defend from me?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

"The origins of the holiday and its December date lie in the ancient Greco-Roman world,

I realize that a great many sources continue to get this wrong, even sources that are normally very good. It reminds me of the "Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome" mistake, which I've heard on normally good sites. Sometimes, an urban legend simply becomes so common that people take it for granted that it is the case.

The argument that I gave for the Origen of Dec 25 pretty much disproves the pagan origin theory.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Interesting thought. So you think that the superstitions around the vernal equinox were not limited to the learned, but was a belief that permeated all social classes?

Yes. I'm sure there were the occasional skeptical sorts that rejected superstitions as a rule of thumb. But even for these sorts, they would have considered the vernal equinox to be special in the cultural sense, much like atheists today exchange presents on Christmas.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You believe in a talking snake. Mic drop.

No I don't.

Instead of assuming I believe this or that, try asking me.

 

[Augustus]

Honestly, I am having a hard time doing that. And maybe this is my fault for not listening closely enough, but you do not seem to have a central argument.

That if people want to claim aspects of Christmas are appropriated from paganism, then they should present meaningful evidence in support of that claim rather than assume post hoc ergo propter hoc.

For me, the evidence suggests that neither the dating nor any of the significant modern trappings are in any meaningful way "pagan", most aren't even medieval, let alone ancient.

So unless we want to be so reductive that literally everything that existed BCE should be considered "pagan", then we should look at specific aspects of Christmas that can be traced back from today to their Pagan origins. If we cannot do this, then we should not assume these to be "Pagan" as people in all cultures create new sources of meaning from their environments.

Then in #47 you said that Christians appropriated preexisting festivals as being "anti-Catholic polemics".

What you seem to have misunderstood is that I said that many of the common “Christmas is pagan” tropes began as anti Catholic polemics in the post reformation era. The desire to paint Christmas as pagan was a sectarian dispute.

They were far from “sociologically neutral” but instead came out of the climate of hatred for “the vilest popery”. They were not making nuanced arguments about cultural continuity, but that Catholics are secret pagans in the pay of Satan.

These are still the common tropes although were appropriated and added to by ideologically motivated 19th c historians and “Enlightenment rationalists”.

Among many (not all) today, the “Christmas is pagan” tropes are very much repeated in this same cause, which is a mean spirited attack on “stupid Christians who don’t know the real history” which I find ironic because much of the nonsense spouted in these threads was made up by Protestant fundamentalists.

That doesn’t mean there are not legitimate scholarly questions about the influences on Christmas, but the idea that basically everything is entirely derivative of ancient paganism is not really supported by the evidence, not least because most traditions are modern.

 

[Augustus]

Thank you for your courteous and detailed reply I would disagree with some of your points though.

P1: All cultures adapt, appropriate and borrow from their cultural environment.
P2: Festivals existed throughout Europe
C: Festivals influenced the behavior and expectations of subsequent generations of the proximate cultures.

We can maybe draw links between gift giving in Late-Antique Roman Christmas and gift giving at Saturnalia, or "lord of misrule" type figures at Saturnalia and medieval Christmas.

But we can also pretty easily see that gift giving can emerge independently, and that in hierarchical societies then 'carnival' periods where normal rules don't apply can serve a social function and thus can also emerge independently.

The thing is gift giving and lords or misrule died out at Christmas well before modern times. You then had periods of alms giving from the upper classes, a tradition of St Nicholas that noted his charity (such as paying the dowries of prostitutes), and then modern style gift giving emerged in the 19th C.

Even if there were influences on the early generations, then these don't seem to have survived in great amounts.

Other things like Yule logs and stuff could just as easily have began as Christian traditions as earlier ones that were kept on. Most of the things asserted as pagan traditions have no real evidence behind them and we just assume that they look "pagan-ish" therefore they must be pagan and have survived since time immemorial.

P1: From its inception Christianity had as a overriding goal the conversion and cooption of all other competing cultures.
P2: The tools available to Christianity were assimilation and conquest.
C: Christianity went hard on assimilation and conquest

That isn't accurate imo, and doesn't really apply a great deal to pre-4th C Christianity.

Once warrior cultures became Christian it starts to contain a degree of truth, but is far too much of an oversimplification to have much use as a general tool of analysis. We can certainly look at specific situations where such things occurred and look at the effects, but on this topic (or any other topic) it says very little of relevance without specifics being added to the mix.

P1: Festivals influenced the behavior and expectations of subsequent generations of the proximate cultures.
P2: Festivals are a tool of assimilation of a culture.
C: Christianity went hard on festivals as a tool for cnversion.

Somethings along these lines must have happened in some places (as in the appropriation of pagan feasts), but the degree to which it happened and its influence on Easter, Christmas, etc. is very debatable. For example the Pope Gregory letter was saying to consecrate new feast days to take them away from the old practices. This is basically the opposite of coopting existing feast days.

Celebrating and promoting aspect of your own culture is not the same as coopting the old culture imo.

We can also draw parallels between some saints and some gods (although the lack of sources can make it hard to identify the extent to which this happened).

I think many people tend to almost assume ancient Christians thought like modern atheists and everything was just a means to a cynical end rather than something that (many of them at least) took very seriously.

Again, it is too much of a generalisation of too diverse and long a timescale to have much analytical value on specific questions.

Would you agree that theological considerations were primary in determining the date, especially through the symbolic connection between Jesus' conception and the vernal equinox, while pagan cultural influences contributed to and helped reinforce and popularize the celebration, particularly in the Roman Empire, where midwinter festivals were already prominent?

For example, I agree with the first part, and the second part is plausible but what would these pagan cultural influences be? What would the evidence be?

There are also plausible arguments that paganism and pagan midwinter festivals played minimal role in reinforcing and popularising it. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. We can create numerous plausible narratives to explain things. There are all kinds of seasonal festivals that emerged and declined for many reasons.

How would we factor in that Christmas wasn't a particularly big celebration in many places throughout the medieval and early modern period, and much of it is really a modern celebration with modern practices?

What can even be traced from (late) antiquity to the modern day regarding Christmas other than its date? How does this affect the way we should view the question of pagan influences on Christmas?

 

[Augustus]

The non-biblical Saturnalia festival for the most part was just re-named as Christ's mass

This is true though.

People tend to conflate multiple things on this issue as if the answer to all of them is the same despite them being independent of each other:

1. The tradition of dating of Jesus’ birth to 25 December
2. The desire to celebrate 25 December as a liturgical feast day
3. The origins of the rituals, traditions and festivities that people engage in when celebrating 25 December as a liturgical feast day

The dating to 25 Dec may be as early as the 2nd century.

The liturgical feast day is likely 4th century.

Christmas and Saturnalia also continued to be celebrated in Rome along side each other for a century or more. It was not simply a rebranding or replacement.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The non-biblical Saturnalia festival for the most part was just re-named as Christ's mass

Saturnalia went from Dec 17-23. Not the 25. Would you like to try again?

 

[Augustus]

It was also the birthday of the Indo-European deity Mithra, a god of light and loyalty whose cult was at the time growing popular among Roman soldiers.

The Roman Mithras was not the same as the Persian Mithra.

As Romans generally disapproved of religious innovations, the new cult used the name to create an impression of antiquity.

 

[Димитар]

The Roman Mithras was not the same as the Persian Mithra.

As Romans generally disapproved of religious innovations, the new cult used the name to create an impression of antiquity.

Yes , this has to do with Zoroastrianism , where Mithra is a sort of a lesser being , like archangel maybe.

 

[metis]

I don't know why do they continue celebrating it on 25th when there is a clear problem with the Julian calendar.

It's all too easy to forget that the Catholic Church uses a liturgical calendar, and just because a saint may be commemorated on a specific date does not mean (s)he was born or died on that date.

 

[Kathryn]

This is very interesting to me, especially the correlation between Epiphany and Christmas (I am Roman Catholic). I always leave decorations up till at least Epiphany, which is January 6th here. I also chalk my front door. (I got that from living in southern Germany for several years.) I love Epiphany. And it's very easy to slide right into Mardi Gras, which I also love! (Hey, I was born in New Orleans - I can hardly help myself and I order a Mardi Gras cake from New Orleans every year!)

 

[ppp]

That if people want to claim aspects of Christmas are appropriated from paganism, then they should present meaningful evidence in support of that claim rather than assume post hoc ergo propter hoc.

For me, the evidence suggests that neither the dating nor any of the significant modern trappings are in any meaningful way "pagan", most aren't even medieval, let alone ancient.

So unless we want to be so reductive that literally everything that existed BCE should be considered "pagan", then we should look at specific aspects of Christmas that can be traced back from today to their Pagan origins. If we cannot do this, then we should not assume these to be "Pagan" as people in all cultures create new sources of meaning from their environments.

I guess one problem here is that you think that there is a meaningful differentiation between early Christian festivals and pre-existing pagan festivals. Or the being "pagan" in that context has a noteworthy significance. The reason for the party (whom-so-ever's party it might be) is the observation of religious beliefs and communal fun. The format of the party is derived from the previous generation with innovation from the new as derived form said beliefs.

It seems to me that I am saying is

1. that the festival trappings of Generation n are derived from the trappings of Generation n-1, which in turn are derived from those of Generation n-2, etc. Because that is how culture works.
2. Christians have from the beginning of the religion been trying to assimilate their neighbors into their beliefs.

So unless we want to be so reductive that literally everything that existed BCE should be considered "pagan"

It seems to me that when spoken by a Christian that up until very recently all pagan meant is someone who is not of an Abrahamic religion. And that it carries the pejorative connotations of rustic, primitive, and barbaric. I think that the Christian desire to not being considered pagan is more about a cultural prejudice than about any real objective differentiation. In other words, pagan is mostly an othering; a way to say those people who are not us.

What you seem to have misunderstood is that I said that many of the common “Christmas is pagan” tropes began as anti Catholic polemics in the post reformation era. The desire to paint Christmas as pagan was a sectarian dispute.

They were far from “sociologically neutral” but instead came out of the climate of hatred for “the vilest popery”. They were not making nuanced arguments about cultural continuity, but that Catholics are secret pagans in the pay of Satan.

These are still the common tropes although were appropriated and added to by ideologically motivated 19th c historians and “Enlightenment rationalists”.

Among many (not all) today, the “Christmas is pagan” tropes are very much repeated in this same cause, which is a mean spirited attack on “stupid Christians who don’t know the real history” which I find ironic because much of the nonsense spouted in these threads was made up by Protestant fundamentalists.

That doesn’t mean there are not legitimate scholarly questions about the influences on Christmas, but the idea that basically everything is entirely derivative of ancient paganism is not really supported by the evidence, not least because most traditions are modern.

You have said this a few times. What you are describing is just Christians of competing sects pointing at one another and shouting, "Pagan!" I don't know why you are telling me this. Do you?

If I has to guess, I would say that the point you are trying to insinuate is that because of the traditional hostilities internal to Christianity, that my reasoning and conclusions are also of a piece with those internal Christian hostilities. If my guess is close then you are engaging in a genetic fallacy. But maybe you had a different intent?


The genetic fallacy occurs when someone dismisses a claim or argument solely based on its origin, source, or history, rather than its current validity or reasoning. It’s about attacking the source of the idea rather than engaging with the idea itself.

 

[ppp]

We can maybe draw links between gift giving in Late-Antique Roman Christmas and gift giving at Saturnalia, or "lord of misrule" type figures at Saturnalia and medieval Christmas.

But we can also pretty easily see that gift giving can emerge independently, and that in hierarchical societies then 'carnival' periods where normal rules don't apply can serve a social function and thus can also emerge independently.

The thing is gift giving and lords or misrule died out at Christmas well before modern times. You then had periods of alms giving from the upper classes, a tradition of St Nicholas that noted his charity (such as paying the dowries of prostitutes), and then modern style gift giving emerged in the 19th C.

Even if there were influences on the early generations, then these don't seem to have survived in great amounts.

Other things like Yule logs and stuff could just as easily have began as Christian traditions as earlier ones that were kept on. Most of the things asserted as pagan traditions have no real evidence behind them and we just assume that they look "pagan-ish" therefore they must be pagan and have survived since time immemorial.

Dear ChatGPT,
Within the context of winter festivals, what is the archaeological consensus regarding the origins of the following practices in the Mediterranean basin and Europe? Please provide a grid outlining each practice, its approximate origin date, and the region or culture where it first appeared, based on the scholarly consensus of archaeologists. The practices are: Gift giving, Burning decorated logs, Evergreen decorations, Ringing bells, Singing songs, Merrymaking, Symbolic candles, and Wassailing

Chat GPT Responds in purple:
Here is a grid detailing the archaeological consensus on the origins of these winter festival practices in the Mediterranean basin and Europe:

Practice	Approximate Origin Date	Region or Culture	Archaeological Consensus
Gift Giving	~3000 BCE	Mesopotamia and Egypt	Originated as offerings to gods or rulers during solstice or New Year celebrations. In the Mediterranean, gift-giving was formalized in Roman Saturnalia (~230 BCE).
Burning Decorated Logs	~500 BCE	Northern Europe (Norse, Germanic)	Part of Yule traditions, where logs were burned to honor deities and ensure light during the solstice. No evidence of decorated logs in Mediterranean regions.
Evergreen Decorations	~2000 BCE	Celtic Europe, Mediterranean Egypt	In Egypt, green palm fronds symbolized eternal life and rebirth. In Celtic Europe, evergreens symbolized resilience and renewal during solstice rituals.
Ringing Bells	~3000 BCE	Mesopotamia and Egypt	Used in rituals to ward off evil spirits. Later adopted into Roman Saturnalia and Medieval Europe for winter festivals.
Singing Songs	~1500 BCE	Mesopotamia, Greece, and Egypt	Hymns tied to agricultural cycles, such as Akitu (Mesopotamian) and Egyptian solstice festivals. In Europe, this evolved into wassailing (~500 CE).
Merrymaking	~3000 BCE	Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Rome	Central to Zagmuk (Mesopotamian), Opet (Egyptian), and later Saturnalia (Roman), with feasting and role reversals to celebrate renewal.
Symbolic Candles	~1500 BCE	Egypt and Greece	Candles were used in Egyptian rituals (e.g., Osiris' rebirth) and Greek winter solstice festivals to symbolize light overcoming darkness.
Wassailing	~500 CE	Anglo-Saxon England	Rooted in early Northern European practices of singing and toasting orchards during winter to ensure good harvests.

Key Observations:​

1. Mediterranean Roots: Practices like gift-giving, ringing bells, merrymaking, and symbolic candles are strongly rooted in the rituals of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, tied to solstice and New Year festivals.
2. European Innovations: Northern European customs, such as burning decorated logs and wassailing, emerged independently, focusing on community survival and honoring nature.
3. Syncretism: Many of these traditions merged as Christianity spread across Europe, adapting older customs into the framework of winter celebrations like Christmas.

This table reflects the best understanding based on archaeological and historical evidence from Mediterranean and European winter traditions.

That isn't accurate imo, and doesn't really apply a great deal to pre-4th C Christianity.

I think that Paul laid assimilation down as a foundational Christian imperative.

"To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some."

The least charitable interpretation of this passage is that Paul is saying it is okay to lie or deceive others in order to get them to convert to Christianity. I choose the more forgiving interpretation, holding that Paul is saying that one should be adaptable, and tailor one's method of persuasion to that which speaks best to one's target audience. Paul remained truthful to the Gospel but adjusted his presentation and personal practices to maximize receptivity of the people to whom he spoke.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Saturnalia went from Dec 17-23. Not the 25. Would you like to try again?

The festival even if ended on the 23rd still the made-up celebration on the 25th is similar

 

[URAVIP2ME]

All cultures adapt, appropriate and borrow from their cultural environment.
As such Christmas includes significant cultural borrowings from “paganism”. Moreover, at least part of this was done consciously as a marketing strategy to convert pagans.
............................................................................................................................................................................................

To me the 'paganism' goes back to mankind's religious family tree at the Tower of Babel
As the people migrated away from Babel they took with them their religious-myth ideas and practices and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
So, it should be No surprise to see such similar or non-biblical overlapping religious ideas and practices spread throughout today's world
.... and some of this is done consciously as a marketing strategy to keep the economy going