Is Consciousness Independent of the Brain?

[Sunstone]

Wouldn't the fact that we are not born conscious, but that consciousness emerges gradually over time as the brain develops be significant evidence that consciousness is dependent on the brain, rather than something independent of the brain? Why or why not?

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, it is not. You have yourself explained it. Why the doubt?

 

[Liu]

Depends on what you mean by consciousness.

Are you referring to the mind? Because that's what your explanation sounds like.

Or to awareness per se? Its dependence on or independence from the brain is really hard to prove - memory is dependent on the brain, so if you were unconscious you don't remember anything that happened during that time. But that doesn't disprove that your awareness still existed in that time.

I tend to believe that consciousness (awareness) is at least not created by the brain, it is just too different to be based on matter.

The only proof that would really convince me that also the mind can exist without a brain, though, would be if bodiless conscious and intelligent entities could be proven to exist.

 

[Deeje]

Wouldn't the fact that we are not born conscious, but that consciousness emerges gradually over time as the brain develops be significant evidence that consciousness is dependent on the brain, rather than something independent of the brain? Why or why not?

Exactly. The brain houses consciousness and personality. That is proved by the fact that brain damage can impair the personality and function of the entire body. Catastrophic brain damage can result in such severe impairment that the victim is left in a vegetative state....alive but not functioning at a human level at all.

We can have a cardiac arrest and be brought back from the brink of death as long as the brain is not deprived of oxygen....but once brain death occurs, no one comes back from that. A dead brain means a dead soul. (Ezekiel 18:4)

 

[wizanda]

Wouldn't the fact that we are not born conscious, but that consciousness emerges gradually over time as the brain develops be significant evidence that consciousness is dependent on the brain, rather than something independent of the brain?

The cognitive abilities of the brain are not fully functional as a child, it isn't that there isn't the same consciousness; just the processing capabilities need to advance, to encompass the magnitude of the soul.

To me consciousness is the dynamic aware code of the Matrix; this whole reality is made of consciousness vibrating at different speeds.

There is a great documentary called, 'Today I died'; where a lady is clinically dead, as they operate upon her brain...

Yet after the operation is over she describes the tools used to do the operation, when she had no way of seeing any of it, as she was already under before entering the theater...

Thus the doctor starts trying to quantify if consciousness could exist at a quantum level, for her to be outside of the brain, and see the operation take place.

Based on my own NDE, our souls exist as a single quantum strand, the reality is made of the same, and so is the brain...

Yet the brain is only a material tool to process information; consciousness and quantum strands can go beyond physical constraints.

 

[Onyx]

Wouldn't the fact that we are not born conscious, but that consciousness emerges gradually over time as the brain develops be significant evidence that consciousness is dependent on the brain, rather than something independent of the brain? Why or why not?

I don't know. But lately I've been thinking about consciousness in relation to fractals, you start off rough but can achieve greater definition given enough time/effort. The same equation can represent any level from the mundane to the transcendental. I'm a Fractalist now.

 

[joe1776]

Out-of-body experiences (OBE) MIGHT be evidence of the mind existing outside the brain.

I woke one night looking down from the ceiling at my wife and myself asleep in bed. As it was happening, I realized that it was the only time in my life that I had seen myself other than in photographs or a mirrored reflection.

The image quality was excellent. I'd say 90% that of reality.

My reasoning faculty was operational. I could analyze the experience as it happened.

I think the experience might have lasted as long as I wanted it to last but I got worried that I'd died so I willed myself back into my body which woke me up. So, the will performed as it does in conscious reality.

A friend, who's a philosophical materialist, argues that my experience was a delusion. He, in my opinion, misused his own version of Occam's Razor in order to jump to that conclusion. And, of course, it's easier to reach the delusion conclusion when it's someone else's experience.

I can't dismiss the delusion possibility nor am I willing to dismiss the possibility that my OBE was exactly what it seemed to be: evidence that the mind can exist outside the brain.

 

[Fool]

Wouldn't the fact that we are not born conscious, but that consciousness emerges gradually over time as the brain develops be significant evidence that consciousness is dependent on the brain, rather than something independent of the brain? Why or why not?

no, that consciousness is latent. case in point, the autonomic nervous system isn't.


Boy born with no brain is to star in his very own Channel 5 documentary

 

[joe1776]

no, that consciousness is latent. case in point, the autonomic nervous system isn't.

Why can't consciousness and the nervous system be disconnected?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Boy born with no brain is to star in his very own Channel 5 documentary

"Boy born with no brain" grossly misrepresents the real-life situation. I obviously followed the link, and only had to read for a few seconds to find that the boy did, indeed, have a brain... a full brain, no less. He was simply unable to use the majority of it due to his birth conditions. And they even mention he is more and more able to use the parts of his brain that were initially inactive as time goes on.

Born with no brain... nothing more than a shock-inducing, motive-driven, clap-trap of a statement.

 

[Fool]

Why can't consciousness and the nervous system be disconnected?

they can. the nervous system is just electrical wiring to capture and diffuse information.

 

[joe1776]

they can. the nervous system is just electrical wiring to capture and diffuse information.

Then how did you use the nervous system as "case in point" evidence that consciousness was latent?

 

[joe1776]

Wouldn't the fact that we are not born conscious, but that consciousness emerges gradually over time as the brain develops be significant evidence that consciousness is dependent on the brain, rather than something independent of the brain? Why or why not?

I'm unfamiliar with the evidence that consciousness emerges gradually over time. What have I missed?

 

[Fool]

"Boy born with no brain" grossly misrepresents the real-life situation. I obviously followed the link, and only had to read for a few seconds to find that the boy did, indeed, have a brain... a full brain, no less. He was simply unable to use the majority of it due to his birth conditions. And they even mention he is more and more able to use the parts of his brain that were initially inactive as time goes on.

Born with no brain... nothing more than a shock-inducing, motive-driven, clap-trap of a statement.

Little boy born without a brain can now speak, count, and attend school


Baby born with nearly no brain still alive 10 years later

 

[eldios]

Wouldn't the fact that we are not born conscious, but that consciousness emerges gradually over time as the brain develops be significant evidence that consciousness is dependent on the brain, rather than something independent of the brain? Why or why not?

Those who are dead will hear the voice of God within the consciousness after the day of the Lord. A dead brain is not needed to experience life.

John 5:
25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
27: and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
28: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice.

You should read about NDE's where brain dead people have experienced all sorts of visible images and thoughts. A brain is not what gives us life experiences.

 

[Fool]

Then how did you use the nervous system as "case in point" evidence that consciousness was latent?

the information is already there. it doesn't come into being, nor does it go out of being. just like a computer captures and diffuses information.

the no-hiding theorem explains the idea of information cannot be created, or destroyed.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Little boy born without a brain can now speak, count, and attend school

From the article:

"Born with only 2 percent of his brain..."

And:

"had expanded to 80% of a normal brain"

Baby born with nearly no brain still alive 10 years later

First, please see bolded word above in your hyperlink. And, from the article:

"Alex has a little of her cerebellum"

So, both children were very much born with brains. Not the types of brains you or I were born with, or experience - but what diffetence does that make? And again, the first article's headline is grossly misleading. He was actually born with a condensed full-brain, or at least one that the body realized had much more potential to grow... 'cause that's what happened. He most certainly WAS NOT born with "no brain". And neither was the girl from the second article - but at least the journalists there had the decency to include the qualifier "nearly."

And trust me, you will find no evidence of a human being alive and well who was born with LITERALLY no brain.

 

[Fool]

From the article:

"Born with only 2 percent of his brain..."

And:

"had expanded to 80% of a normal brain"


First, please see bolded word above in your hyperlink. And, from the article:

"Alex has a little of her cerebellum"

So, both children were very much born with brains. Not the types of brains you or I were born with, or experience - but what diffetence does that make? And again, the first article's headline is grossly misleading. He was actually born with a condensed full-brain, or at least one that the body realized had much more potential to grow... 'cause that's what happened. He most certainly WAS NOT born with "no brain". And neither was the girl from the second article - but at least the journalists there had the decency to include the qualifier "nearly."

And trust me, you will find no evidence of a human beingalive and well who qas born with LITERALLY no brain.

Making Decisions: Evolved or Primitive Brain? | Psych Central

again a brain isn't necessary for intelligence to occur; especially if seeking/studying knowledge is the cause of knowledge. the knowledge already exists; otherwise there is no seeking.

now the problem that arises, is the knowledge self-aware, or aware of higher states of consciousness? or even aware of other states of consciousness like itself?


bacteria and plants do not have brains but they do have intelligence.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I've heard a Christian define his god as "disembodied mind", he is a biologist, you'd think he would know better. Not for the first time we seem to get side tracked by definitions, is consciousness separate from "mind" or just a part of "mind". Can "awareness" exist without "mind"? I'd say the two are inextricably entwined.
My experience of reality says no, consciousness does not exist independent of a brain, and dare I say our shared experience of reality says no (ever met a mind that came without a brain, does your coffee table talk to you? If so, please share! I like stories!).

 

[Fool]

I've heard a Christian define his god as "disembodied mind", he is a biologist, you'd think he would know better. Not for the first time we seem to get side tracked by definitions, is consciousness separate from "mind" or just a part of "mind". Can "awareness" exist without "mind"? I'd say the two are inextricably entwined.
My experience of reality says no, consciousness does not exist independent of a brain, and dare I say our shared experience of reality says no (ever met a mind that came without a brain, does your coffee table talk to you? If so, please share! I like stories!).

Microbial intelligence - Wikipedia

Bacterial Intelligence - Astrobiology Magazine

Macromolecular networks and intelligence in microorganisms