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Is consciousness nothing-in-itself?

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
I've been studying the existentialist theory of consciousness first developed by the philosopher Jean-Paul Satre in his book Being and Nothingness. He argues that consciousness is not an essential or eternal thing, but rather that it is temporalized and relational. It is nothing-in-itself.

This may sound strange at first until we examine it further. Consciousness is temporal since it is in constant motion between a past and a future, a 'no-longer' and a 'not-yet'. There is no static present. What is time? It is not really a thing that we can grasp like a rock. It can be measured and we feel it passing, so it is real enough, but it is not a thing. It is relational. Math is another good example of being relational rather than material. The same can be said for different states of mind, such as beliefs and expectations. Consciousness is of time. It is constantly using a 'past' to springboard into an awareness of 'future' possibilities.

To be conscious is to be conscious about something. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, then does it make a sound? It could be argued that without the presence of consciousness, there is only undifferentiated being, which just is what it is, and that's all we can really say about that.

We can get the scientific impression that there are physical processes, but they only gain distinction through the interaction of consciousness as a relational process of making meaning between collections of appearances. Consciousness itself needs to be physically embodied it seems, although it would be inaccurate to say that it is merely reducible to brain activity.

To be is to do. Consciousness works through the negation of undifferentiated being into appearances of phenomena. This becomes distinct from that, this as external to that, here as not there, then as not now, etc. Phenomena are a synthesis of what's going on 'out there' and the activity of consciousness. We interpret every situation according to inquiries, desires, hopes, expectations, and intentions.

We are always predisposed to find something lacking in any situation because lacking is intrinsic to the very meaning of the situation for any particular consciousness. In general, a person always lacks the future, which gives meaning to present actions, but just becomes another past-future opening up new future-past possibilities.

Beyond that are vain hopes of becoming one with ourselves. However, this would be impossible since, really, we are this endless march forward in time. Perhaps the harshest of all existential truths regarding the human condition is that there is always a certain degree of dissatisfaction that cannot be overcome. This realization may also be liberating once we embrace our freedom and the responsibility for choices that this theory of consciousness supports.

What are some opinions on this existentialist theory? Is it supported by any evidence? Or is it used more just to justify a particular ethical system surrounding freedom?

Thanks,

~Curt
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Is consciousness nothing-in-itself?
This begs a definition "something." What ya got?



EDITED to note a typo. My reply here should read:
"This begs a definition of "something." What ya got?
 
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Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
This begs a definition "something." What ya got?
[/b]

Narrow definitions can sometimes get in the way of trying to understand complex relationships and processes. Consciousness may be more like the dictionary itself rather than the definitions. It is that temporal negation which defines or relates the meanings of appearances in an otherwise undifferentiated being.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Still learning what those Existentialists were going on about. Sartre formulated a certain paradox on consciousness:

"At present it (being of consciousness) is not what it is (its past) and it is what it is not (its future)." (p. 146)

Consciousness is essentially temporalized. It is always its past which is no longer and its future which is not yet. There is no jumping from one moment to the next. There is only presence to the world as life constantly flowing forward in time. This is temporal motion. Consciousness constantly transcends, surpasses, and flees what it is, or what it was, towards a future at which it aims.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Ever consider that consciousness may not actually exist? Complex chemical interactions making us feel aware, but ultimately we are nothing more than matter changing form. To me it is just another word to describe another peculiar form or property that matter takes. It is not something which exists separately or independently.


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Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
I've come to the conclusion that philosophy is actually quite useless (edit: inadequate)...it solves nothing. Other than creating more questions and confusion than answers, what great questions regarding life, consciousness, or existence has philosophy actually solved? They just keep debating, but they don't solve anything. The problem is everyone has their own philosophy, just like religion. The answers to life's great mysteries will not be found through philosophy or spirituality, they will be discovered through science or physics. I guess that's kind of a philosophy in and of itself. I think it is good to have a sort of personal philosophy, but I wouldn't expect any great revelations out of it. The truly great revelations are being discovered through science.


Just to edit: Useless was the wrong word, my bad. Philosophy does have it's uses. Inadequate is more accurate.

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Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Ever consider that consciousness may not actually exist?

I've considered it, yeah.

Complex chemical interactions making us feel aware,

Can you describe that ACTUAL awareness that the chemical interactions are making us feel like?

but ultimately we are nothing more than matter changing form.

This would be the case regardless of whether we are aware or only feeling aware. Whatever the difference happens to be, that is.

To me it is just another word to describe another peculiar form or property that matter takes.

I'm sorry, so are you saying that awareness is a peculiar form or property that matter takes? If so, I am curious how you would consider such things non-existent.

It is not something which exists separately or independently.

Separate or independent from what, exactly?
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
Ever consider that consciousness may not actually exist? Complex chemical interactions making us feel aware, but ultimately we are nothing more than matter changing form. To me it is just another word to describe another peculiar form or property that matter takes. It is not something which exists separately or independently.


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How would that make consciousness not real? It's simply make it not supernatural.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
I've come to the conclusion that philosophy is actually quite useless...it solves nothing. Other than creating more questions and confusion than answers, what great questions regarding life, consciousness, or existence has philosophy actually solved? They just keep debating, but they don't solve anything. The problem is everyone has their own philosophy, just like religion. The answers to life's great mysteries will not be found through philosophy or spirituality, they will be discovered through science or physics. I guess that's kind of a philosophy in and of itself. I think it is good to have a sort of personal philosophy, but I wouldn't expect any great revelations out of it. The truly great revelations are being discovered through science.


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Something tells me that someone is going to respond to this much better than I can.

I'll just give you one of these: :facepalm:
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
I've considered it, yeah.



Can you describe that ACTUAL awareness that the chemical interactions are making us feel like?



This would be the case regardless of whether we are aware or only feeling aware. Whatever the difference happens to be, that is.



I'm sorry, so are you saying that awareness is a peculiar form or property that matter takes? If so, I am curious how you would consider such things non-existent.



Separate or independent from what, exactly?


People have a tendency of thinking consciousness is some mysterious, non-physical thing that exists everywhere. Consciousness is nothing spiritual or mysterious in my opinion. It is complex chemical interactions.
 
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Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Something tells me that someone is going to respond to this much better than I can.

I'll just give you one of these: :facepalm:

What does philosophy solve? The philosophers can discuss and argue and debate their particular ideas all they want, but they are not the ones getting out into the field and actually making the discoveries or finding real answers to questions. That is for science. I used to think I was always the philosophical type, but that has changed. I don't care about the "great thinkers" anymore. I care about the great doers.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
People have a tendency of thinking consciousness is some mysterious, non-physical thing that exists everywhere. Consciousness is nothing spiritual or mysterious in my opinion. It is complex chemical interactions.

I don't see how this is an answer to any of my previous questions.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
What does philosophy solve? The philosophers can discuss and argue and debate their particular ideas all they want, but they are not the ones getting out into the field and actually making the discoveries or finding real answers to questions. That is for science. I used to think I was always the philosophical type, but that has changed. I don't care about the "great thinkers" anymore. I care about the great doers.

Philosophers are responsible for developing the scientific method. Should I bother saying anything else, or will that be sufficient for you to stop this line of thinking?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
People have a tendency of thinking consciousness is some mysterious, non-physical thing that exists everywhere. Consciousness is nothing spiritual or mysterious in my opinion. It is complex chemical interactions.
It does appear as an emergent property by which we associate the term. . A phenomena that flickers and wanes like a candle when lit.

I happen to think atm of consciousness, in attempts to explain, as an active intellectualziaton of the experience related to awareness. It seems we concentrate on the intellectually aware aspect, when there are forms of consciousness that continue and react when awareness is subdued or absent like when asleep. Leaving our internal biology on watch.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Philosophers are responsible for developing the scientific method. Should I bother saying anything else, or will that be sufficient for you to stop this line of thinking?

That's all good, and philosophers probably developed that method because philosophy in and of itself could not find that evidence or come up with those answers, they could only speculate. I think now the focus should be more on science rather than philosophy.
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
It was an answer as far as I understood your questions.

Alright, allow me to demonstrate why it was not.

Question 1: Can you describe that ACTUAL awareness that the chemical interactions are making us feel like?

Your answer: People have a tendency of thinking consciousness is some mysterious, non-physical thing that exists everywhere. Consciousness is nothing spiritual or mysterious in my opinion. It is complex chemical interactions.


This answer contains absolutely no description of the phenomenon called 'awareness' that we are only 'feeling like' we have, as you said. In fact, your answer does not even address this question, let alone answer it.

Question 2:I'm sorry, so are you saying that awareness is a peculiar form or property that matter takes? If so, I am curious how you would consider such things non-existent.

Your answer: People have a tendency of thinking consciousness is some mysterious, non-physical thing that exists everywhere. Consciousness is nothing spiritual or mysterious in my opinion. It is complex chemical interactions


So, what about your answer explains why you think such a thing does not exist? Nothing.

Question 3: Separate or independent from what, exactly?

Your answer: People have a tendency of thinking consciousness is some mysterious, non-physical thing that exists everywhere. Consciousness is nothing spiritual or mysterious in my opinion. It is complex chemical interactions


Again, I don't really see how this can answer my question and in fact seems to reverse your previous position as you are now arguing against consciousness existing everywhere which would be pretty far from separate or independent.

Can you now understand how I am confused why you think this is an answer to any of my questions?

There is nothing wrong with my line of thinking.

Yes. There is something wrong with your line of thinking. It includes ideas that are false. Hence... it is wrong.

I think differently, what is wrong with that?
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with thinking differently.

Philosophy may have developed the method, true, and there is value in that I agree.
Just a teensy weensy bit of value in that, yeah.

I simply give the credit of scientific discovery to those scientists who were actually out in the field and made those discoveries.
So long as they don't consider themselves philosophers? Or so long as they don't follow any particular philosophy? Or what? What exactly is allowing you to differentiate between a scientist making a scientific discovery and a philosopher making a scientific discovery?

I just personally think there should be more focus now on science rather than philosophy if we want answers to questions regarding things like consciousness or life.
And I think its pretty impossible to separate science from the philosophy of science, and therefore your statement is nonsense.

Are you starting to catch on, yet?
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
It does appear as an emergent property by which we associate the term. . A phenomena that flickers and wanes like a candle when lit.

I happen to think atm of consciousness, in attempts to explain, as an active intellectualziaton of the experience related to awareness. It seems we concentrate on the intellectually aware aspect, when there are forms of consciousness that continue and react when awareness is subdued or absent like when asleep. Leaving our internal biology on watch.

True. Those interactions never cease.
 
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