Is Freewill a Sin?

[Nakosis]

If freewill is doing what you want to do vs doing what God wants you to do does that mean acting on your freewill instead of acting according to God's will a sin?

Adam and Eve made the freewill choice to eat the fruit that God told them not to which allowed sin to enter the world.

If they had never acted with freewill there would be no sin.
If you want to act according to God's rules you no longer have the freedom to act according to your own will.

Are the wages of freewill death?
That seems to be how it worked in the case of Adam and Eve.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's an allegory of good and evil.
It means "you can't have the cake and eat it".

If you decide to commit evil, you can't get away with it.

It's like someone said: "I want to kill someone and get away with it".

 

[Jimmy]

You will burn for all of eternity if you make choices. Haha

 

[Nimos]

If freewill is doing what you want to do vs doing what God wants you to do does that mean acting on your freewill instead of acting according to God's will a sin?

Adam and Eve made the freewill choice to eat the fruit that God told them not to which allowed sin to enter the world.

If they had never acted with freewill there would be no sin.
If you want to act according to God's rules you no longer have the freedom to act according to your own will.

Are the wages of freewill death?
That seems to be how it worked in the case of Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve got tricked into eating the fruit, having been given no defence against Satan's manipulation to make a judgement of whether it was right or wrong, and for that, they got punished. Obviously, not the story as we know it, but how it is presented in the bible nonetheless.

You are free to do what you want as long as you do what God want you to do otherwise you will be punished and in some cases that means death.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Consciousness IS free will. God KNEW that Eve would bite the apple and cause all the suffering in the world since then. And religion, especially Christianity, is just an elaborate way of forcing people to think morally in relation to God rather than morality in relation to oneself and others. There is nothing wrong with having free will, and Arminian Christians would agree to this, that even though God has it in his powers to do anything he wants, the one thing he cannot do is change the minds of others. And given the fact that your religion is, "Scientism", I don't expect you to know or understand basic Christian doctrine regarding the expression of free will. Free will in general can be either good or bad depending on what they do, but I would argue that every action someone does is in some ways an expression of free will - including this thread.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Free will is a philosophical topic. Its not something required of a Christian as it is very debatable. Conscience is required as far as I can tell though.

Adam and Eve made the freewill choice to eat the fruit that God told them not to which allowed sin to enter the world.

If they had never acted with freewill there would be no sin.

Well maybe, but that is not how I see it. If they don't eat the fruit then they never have any conscience. Adam sees that death is better, so he eats the fruit. He'd rather understand right from wrong like the gods than be ignorant, and he's willing to give up his immortality for the sake of that. Its a trade.

If you want to act according to God's rules you no longer have the freedom to act according to your own will.

Are the wages of freewill death?
That seems to be how it worked in the case of Adam and Eve.

Opposing gods is fatal, but it is better than the alternative: appeasing them continually.

If freewill is doing what you want to do vs doing what God wants you to do does that mean acting on your freewill instead of acting according to God's will a sin?

The passages we are talking about (Genesis) predate the word 'God'. There is first of all the god of this world, and then there is the God who is creating Israel from the formless chaos of that world. There is conflict between this creation and the old creation. The concept of free will is mostly absent. You are in one group or another group, and its mostly up to your parents which group you are in.

If we skip forward in the NT verses there is a concept of being predestined, however this is not related to determinism. Its related to adoption and is about Christ being the end goal of Abraham. Assuming Christ is the end goal of Abraham all Christians are predestined in that sense, but it does not have to do with predestination as discussed philosophically.

 

[Wildswanderer]

If freewill is doing what you want to do vs doing what God wants you to do does that mean acting on your freewill instead of acting according to God's will a sin?

Adam and Eve made the freewill choice to eat the fruit that God told them not to which allowed sin to enter the world.

If they had never acted with freewill there would be no sin.
If you want to act according to God's rules you no longer have the freedom to act according to your own will.

Are the wages of freewill death?
That seems to be how it worked in the case of Adam and Eve.

That's not the definition of freewill.
It is the ability to choose right or wrong.

 

[nPeace]

If freewill is doing what you want to do vs doing what God wants you to do does that mean acting on your freewill instead of acting according to God's will a sin?

Freewill decisions do not mean "doing what you want to do vs doing what God wants you to do"
If that were the case, it would mean that Jesus, and the myriad of other spirit sons, do not have free will, because they chose to do what God wants.
So, having free will, is not a sin.
Sin, is to miss the mark of God's righteous standards.

Adam and Eve made the freewill choice to eat the fruit that God told them not to which allowed sin to enter the world.

If they had never acted with freewill there would be no sin.
If you want to act according to God's rules you no longer have the freedom to act according to your own will.

If they were designed to only obey God - that is programmed, rather than made free moral agents, yes, there would be no sin... of course.

I think, you meant to say, "If you do not want to act according to God's rules...".
You do have the freedom to act.
God gives you that freedom.

It's like when we are given freedom to drive on the road, we must drive o the lanes designated, or on the side of the road permitted.
We have freedom, but there are limits to what we are allowed to do, with our freedom.

We are free to go to space, but make sure and don't take your helmet off, while up there.
There are consequences.

Are the wages of freewill death?

No. As I mentioned earlier, that would mean every intelligent creation of God sinned, but that is not what sin is.
Sin is disobedience to God.

That seems to be how it worked in the case of Adam and Eve.

No. Their freewill choice, going against God's standards, was sin... which is a consequence.

To illustrate.
A person being given a privilege of responsibility in a powerful king's house, is not given a death penalty.
If he commits adultery with the king's wife, and is put to death, death is a consequence of his action.

Similarly, sin and death, is a consequence of misusing one's free will.
The apostle Peter, uses a similar explanation.
1 Peter 2:16 For you are free, yet you are God’s slaves, so don’t use your freedom as an excuse to do evil.

 

[nPeace]

Adam and Eve got tricked into eating the fruit, having been given no defence against Satan's manipulation to make a judgement of whether it was right or wrong, and for that, they got punished. Obviously, not the story as we know it, but how it is presented in the bible nonetheless.

Not according to what the Bible says. No.

You are free to do what you want as long as you do what God want you to do otherwise you will be punished and in some cases that means death.

You are free to drive on the road, as long as you do not drive into oncoming traffic.
Otherwise you will likely die, or end up in ICU, or paralyzed, or in a coma... or dead... or charged for manslaughter, and be jailed, for a few years.

Your choice. Your freedom.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If freewill is doing what you want to do vs doing what God wants you to do does that mean acting on your freewill instead of acting according to God's will a sin?

Adam and Eve made the freewill choice to eat the fruit that God told them not to which allowed sin to enter the world.

If they had never acted with freewill there would be no sin.
If you want to act according to God's rules you no longer have the freedom to act according to your own will.

Are the wages of freewill death?
That seems to be how it worked in the case of Adam and Eve.

I suppose if you say it's freewill when someone is looking at the barrel of a loaded gun and complies with the burglar.
Probably why some Christians reject freewill (and that omniscient thing would make it impossible). But that just makes Jehovah look just as cruel and savage as calling it freewill when extreme levels of coercion are involved.

 

[Nakosis]

That's not the definition of freewill.
It is the ability to choose right or wrong.

OK, but then the question is, is the only right way God's way?
So choosing the wrong way, not God's way equals sin?
Choosing sin has consequences.
If you want to avoid the consequences you can only choose God's way.
Are your choices really free if the if you know that making the wrong choice will cost you?

 

[Nakosis]

Freewill decisions do not mean "doing what you want to do vs doing what God wants you to do"
If that were the case, it would mean that Jesus, and the myriad of other spirit sons, do not have free will, because they chose to do what God wants.
So, having free will, is not a sin.

Well, I'm not arguing that having freewill is a sin. I'm saying if you make use of it, acting according to your own will, not the will of God is a sin.

So Jesus was free to chose to act according to God's will or act outside of God's will. If Jesus had acting on his own will, in his case to not die on the cross, then it would have been a sin.
Jesus expressed his will by saying "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me."

Sin, is to miss the mark of God's righteous standards.


If they were designed to only obey God - that is programmed, rather than made free moral agents, yes, there would be no sin... of course.

I think, you meant to say, "If you do not want to act according to God's rules...".
You do have the freedom to act.
God gives you that freedom.

Yes, I understand. You have the freedom to act. It is all good if you choose to act according to God's will, God's expressed set of standards. Everything you do within those standards is God's will, not your own. Your own autonomous will only exists outside of those standards. So you are free to choose, act according to your own will (everything not contained by God's will) or act according to God's will, not your own.

It's like when we are given freedom to drive on the road, we must drive o the lanes designated, or on the side of the road permitted.
We have freedom, but there are limits to what we are allowed to do, with our freedom.

We are free to go to space, but make sure and don't take your helmet off, while up there.
There are consequences.


No. As I mentioned earlier, that would mean every intelligent creation of God sinned, but that is not what sin is.
Sin is disobedience to God.


No. Their freewill choice, going against God's standards, was sin... which is a consequence.

To illustrate.
A person being given a privilege of responsibility in a powerful king's house, is not given a death penalty.
If he commits adultery with the king's wife, and is put to death, death is a consequence of his action.

Similarly, sin and death, is a consequence of misusing one's free will.
The apostle Peter, uses a similar explanation.
1 Peter 2:16 For you are free, yet you are God’s slaves, so don’t use your freedom as an excuse to do evil.

Ok, but God's standards are God's will. If I chose to act according to God's standards which are a manifestation of God's will, not my will then I wouldn't be acting of my own freewill but acting according to God's will.

All I see is you are saying there is a broader range of choices you can make which meets God's standards. However acting outside of those standards is a sin.
So there's God's will which is every action you can possible make which still meets God's standards. Even if I choose to act according to God's standards, it is God's will I am acting on, not my own. The only actions I can make of my own will are those that fall outside of the possible actions that would be God's will.

 

[1213]

If freewill is doing what you want to do vs doing what God wants you to do does that mean acting on your freewill instead of acting according to God's will a sin?

Adam and Eve made the freewill choice to eat the fruit that God told them not to which allowed sin to enter the world.

If they had never acted with freewill there would be no sin.
If you want to act according to God's rules you no longer have the freedom to act according to your own will.
...

Free will is not itself a sin. And I think the idea in the Bible is that people freely want to do Good's will. And then their free will is the same as God's will.

 

[nPeace]

Well, I'm not arguing that having freewill is a sin. I'm saying if you make use of it, acting according to your own will, not the will of God is a sin.

So Jesus was free to chose to act according to God's will or act outside of God's will. If Jesus had acting on his own will, in his case to not die on the cross, then it would have been a sin.
Jesus expressed his will by saying "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me."


Yes, I understand. You have the freedom to act. It is all good if you choose to act according to God's will, God's expressed set of standards. Everything you do within those standards is God's will, not your own. Your own autonomous will only exists outside of those standards. So you are free to choose, act according to your own will (everything not contained by God's will) or act according to God's will, not your own.



Ok, but God's standards are God's will. If I chose to act according to God's standards which are a manifestation of God's will, not my will then I wouldn't be acting of my own freewill but acting according to God's will.

All I see is you are saying there is a broader range of choices you can make which meets God's standards. However acting outside of those standards is a sin.
So there's God's will which is every action you can possible make which still meets God's standards. Even if I choose to act according to God's standards, it is God's will I am acting on, not my own. The only actions I can make of my own will are those that fall outside of the possible actions that would be God's will.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying, or what your argument is.

Freedom... any kind, has limits, and consequences.
We all have free will. If I want to jump off the Empire State building, my freedom is not restricted.
The law of gravity, however, and my physical state, says that doing so is against my freedom.

In the same way, free will allows us to do anything we want.
The law of the supreme one says, doing anything we want is against our freewill.

The consequence in both cases is not good, for the reason that we are going against fixed laws. One is physical. One is spiritual. Both are unchangeable, undeniable..

Freewill given to us then, is not a ticket to "I AM MY OWN PERSON. I OWN ME. I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT."
The life giver did not give us life to do whatever we want.
The life giver thus has the right to take that life... if we don't end up destroying it ourselves.

We have a good example right here, to demonstrate this.
If we go against nature... which mankind is doing a good job at, it will go against us... as we are seeing.

This concept is quite basic.
Fighting against it is really... well... what more can I say.