Is God By Necessity An Atheist?

[Sunstone]

It is argued in some circles that god is by necessity an atheist. For, in order to know something objectively, you must stand outside and apart from it. Otherwise, your knowledge of a thing is subjective. Yet, god is infinite, which means god does not stand outside and apart from anything (or else god would be limited, which is opposed to god being infinite). Therefore, since god cannot stand outside and apart from anything, god must not be objective about god, and consequently god must be an atheist about god's own existence. Is this argument conclusive? If so, why? If not why not?

 

[Breathe]

Depends if he believes in himself or not.

 

[PolyHedral]

God obviously does not believe in Himself as people here do; "It would be like believing in the milkman."

 

[Tathagata]

He is an Atheist with regard any other God, but surely he believes in himself.

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[Kilgore Trout]

He is an Atheist with regard any other God, but surely he believes in himself.

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But wouldn't that depend on whether his parents instilled a sense of self-confidence in him?

 

[Sunstone]

He is an Atheist with regard any other God, but surely he believes in himself.

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How would that be possible? For if he believes in himself but his knowledge is subjective, then his knowledge is incomplete and he consequently does not fully believe in himself. But if he believes in himself and his knowledge is objective, then he is apart from and outside of himself, which is a contradiction.

 

[outhouse]

Depends if he believes in himself or not.

not really


imagine ants, rabbits , chickens or ducks or any other creature lol they "could" all look up at us as if we are gods.

we know who and what we are and do not define ourselves as such

who says god looks at himself as we do, we dont have a clue how such a deity would think or if it/he/she is even a deity at all . That is all humans definition

 

[sandandfoam]

It is argued in some circles that god is by necessity an atheist. For, in order to know something objectively, you must stand outside and apart from it. Otherwise, your knowledge of a thing is subjective. Yet, god is infinite, which means god does not stand outside and apart from anything (or else god would be limited, which is opposed to god being infinite). Therefore, since god cannot stand outside and apart from anything, god must not be objective about god, and consequently god must be an atheist about god's own existence. Is this argument conclusive? If so, why? If not why not?

Looks like your god is in the same boat as us. I see no more reason why he would be compelled to be an atheist than any random human.
Jeez, he could even be a republican :angel2:

 

[Tathagata]

How would that be possible? For if he believes in himself but his knowledge is subjective,

False. There are many objective facts you can know about yourself. One of those objective facts is the knowledge of your own existence. This is not mere opinion. In fact, the knowledge of your own existence is empirical fact because empirical matters are discovered through observation and surely you can observe the existence of yourself.

then his knowledge is incomplete

Non-sequitur. Subjective knowledge, therefore incomplete? How does that follow?

and he consequently does not fully believe in himself.

Tautological fallacy. You're saying that his subjective belief in himself is not fully believing in himself therefore he doesn't fully believe in himself.

First of all, you haven't demonstrated why his self-knowledge is necessarily subjective and you have not demonstrated how subjectivity is necessarily incomplete.

But if he believes in himself and his knowledge is objective, then he is apart from and outside of himself, which is a contradiction.

You are bending semantics to make your point. Objective knowledge doesn't necessarily have to be external. There are objective facts that you can know about yourself such as you have 10 fingers, you know that your mind is thinking, etc. Subjectivity happens when one applies their own opinions onto reality yet have no epistemological basis for this opinion.


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[angellous_evangellous]

 

[sirat]

It is argued in some circles that god is by necessity an atheist. For, in order to know something objectively, you must stand outside and apart from it. Otherwise, your knowledge of a thing is subjective. Yet, god is infinite, which means god does not stand outside and apart from anything (or else god would be limited, which is opposed to god being infinite). Therefore, since god cannot stand outside and apart from anything, god must not be objective about god, and consequently god must be an atheist about god's own existence. Is this argument conclusive? If so, why? If not why not?

Salaam friend,

It is argued in some circles that Marmite tastes good.

Accepting your definition of objectivity, please use it on itself. In order to understand what objectivity means you must be able to stand apart from it. But, if you stand apart from it, you cannot be objective about what is objective. The definition contains the seeds of its own fall. It is not self-consistent. It is more of a hypothesis that you are trying to prove. Then this rule applies: Don't make a harder problem when you are trying to solve an easier one. Adding God into the mix does not make that an easier problem.

Therefore: antics ensue

wa salaam

sirat

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is argued in some circles that god is by necessity an atheist. For, in order to know something objectively, you must stand outside and apart from it.

I take it you're not a fan of Descartes.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I take it you're not a fan of Descartes.

I liked his first album, but after that he got way too pretentious.

 

[Luminous]

atheist: against theist (God check)
atheist: believe there is no God (God whaaa?_)
atheist: believe there is no other God's but the self (God check)
atheist: believe there is no higher powers (God check)

many definitions of atheist fit our definition of God.
God:all knowing, all powerful thing, which doesn't want us to lie.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

atheist: against theist (God check)

Heh... if God really is "against theist", that would explain a few things.

 

[Penumbra]

It is argued in some circles that god is by necessity an atheist. For, in order to know something objectively, you must stand outside and apart from it. Otherwise, your knowledge of a thing is subjective. Yet, god is infinite, which means god does not stand outside and apart from anything (or else god would be limited, which is opposed to god being infinite). Therefore, since god cannot stand outside and apart from anything, god must not be objective about god, and consequently god must be an atheist about god's own existence. Is this argument conclusive? If so, why? If not why not?

I disagree with the premise that in order to know something objectively, you must stand outside and apart from it, and that this knowledge is subjective otherwise.

And actually, internal knowledge in the form of, "I think, therefore I am" is perhaps more objective than any external knowledge could be. When we make this statement, we're saying that it's an objective fact that we exist, regardless of the problem that we may or may not be able to prove this objective fact to others (if there are others). We may not be able to know our true nature, but we can know that we individually exist.

To answer the question, a god would be a theist, but might possibly have some doubts depending on what type of god it is.

1) A god is necessarily sapient, because if it is not, I can likely offer a better definition for this entity than the word "god".

2) If it is sapient, then cogito ergo sum applies to it. It knows it exists. The only remaining question, then, is can it know for sure that it is indeed god?

3) Unless god has some way of knowing something for sure that is unavailable to other beings, it may be unable to surely conclude that it is god. Even if it knows everything that it seeks to know, and is able to control everything it knows in any way that it sees fit, can it be sure that it is not a small part of a larger picture? Can it know for sure that what it experiences is truly everything that exists? Could there conceivably be separate universes with separate gods, unaware of each other, but having omnipotence and omniscience in their own realms? I can conceive of a thought experiment where I am placed into a machine that fools all of my tools for perception, and leads me to believe I am god by allowing me to know and control everything about my virtual environment.

4) Aseity or eternity might provide the ability to know for sure that it is god, but it gets very abstract at this point. If god is capable of self-origination, or has no beginning, it is potentially bending logic itself, and becomes inconceivable. Perhaps it can eliminate the possibility that realms exist that it is not aware of.

So basically, it's either a gnostic theist or an agnostic theist depending on its qualities.

 

[sojourner]

It is argued in some circles that god is by necessity an atheist. For, in order to know something objectively, you must stand outside and apart from it. Otherwise, your knowledge of a thing is subjective. Yet, god is infinite, which means god does not stand outside and apart from anything (or else god would be limited, which is opposed to god being infinite). Therefore, since god cannot stand outside and apart from anything, god must not be objective about god, and consequently god must be an atheist about god's own existence. Is this argument conclusive? If so, why? If not why not?

Perhaps objective knowledge is not the real goal of knowing God... Maybe objective knowledge is a wild goose chase.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm moving this thread to the jokes section because I think the OP is absurd.

 

[Luminous]

I'm moving this thread to the jokes section because I think the OP is absurd.

absurd? i think it just scares you. what if God is simply the HIGHEST power and the highest power doesn't think it exists?
Or perhaps more especifically, since God DOESN'T exist, God knows this, since it knows everything, and it "IS" but simply doesn't "exist" by some definition of "exist."

 

[Penumbra]

I'm moving this thread to the jokes section because I think the OP is absurd.

It is indeed, but there is some real content within the humor.

The question of whether god would be an atheist is obviously silly. But the subtle sub-question of whether omniscience can prove that it is indeed omniscient is a legitimate philosophical question.