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Is God omni-benevolent?

Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Muffled said:
I believe yu might have been thinking about this verse:
Matt 21:44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
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[Exo 14:29 NIV] 29 But the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.

I'm thinking about the cold and distant god who is to us more like a principle of nature than a person and how careful it is to avoid disaster. If you are too nice you are harmed, and if you are too greedy you are harmed. Calling it omnibenevolent is somewhat true, but its also true of a stone or water or anything. The thorn you step on by accident is benevolent, too. Protocol teaches you how to avoid the thorns, to go neither to the right nor to the left. You know not to step on a briar or know how to get past them or how to go around or trim them back, so that you don't get hurt.

I'm thinking the flipside of this is not the god of this world but the God of Abraham. This is the God of a new creation, and the kingdoms of the earth are being replaced; and the old world is being replaced by the new. The necessity of tiptoeing around briars is to eventually be done away with. There will be no such thing as "Too nice." The new creation is prayed for and then amen is said, and the work begins.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Brian2 said:
The way God is doing things would be the best way to do things to make sure that evil and suffering are expelled while being just to all.
We don't know the future and so we can't say that allowing suffering of the innocent makes God less that completely good.
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Yes we can. Can God only do things one way? Is there a different way to accomplish his goals without childhood leukemia? If not, then he is not all powerful. If so, then he is not all good.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Wildswanderer said:
How does this relate to the question of a loving God?
In a world without God, leukemia, pain, or any form of suffering, including your stubbed toe, is neither good nor bad, it just is.
Why would you have any problem with it?
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No, atheists can reason that leukemia is bad. It takes religion to come to the conclusion that is serves a bigger good purpose.

I suppose the real question is something like: "If God does exist, why doesn't he do something about the world we screwed up?"
According to Christianity he did, in fact, do something quite dramatic. He became one of us and took every pain of every human onto his own body.
I haven't found a god that loving in any other religion and certainly not in a godless universe where pain is just natural selection at work.
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This isn't doing anything about the suffering everyday.
 
Brian2

Brian2

Veteran Member
Clizby Wampuscat said:
Yes we can. Can God only do things one way? Is there a different way to accomplish his goals without childhood leukemia? If not, then he is not all powerful. If so, then he is not all good.
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Being able to do something but not doing it for reasons that we are not told means that God can be all powerful and good and that it is our ignorance which is the problem and which we ignore and just accuse God instead of trusting God.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Wildswanderer said:
Why? It's just nature selection at work. What does bad even mean in a world where good and bad are totally subjective anyway?
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The problem theists have is they are just using reason to justify what is good or bad just like the atheist. It is obvious when believers cannot agree on what is good or bad. No where is there a god that makes it clear what is good or bad so you are left with reason to determine that. Everyone's morality is subjective even God's morality if he exists. If god does exist and determines morality then it is just his/her subjective opinion.

If you start with some presuppositions like life is preferable to death and suffering should be minimized you can get pretty far a moral system. I think most people would agree on these two presuppositions.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Brian2 said:
Being able to do something but not doing it for reasons that we are not told means that God can be all powerful and good and that it is our ignorance which is the problem and which we ignore and just accuse God instead of trusting God.
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I will accuse God until it explains why the suffering is needed. If I beat my son every day but there was a good reason for it long term and never told him why that would be immoral and just being a jerk. Job wanted some answers and all God did was tell him to shut up and take it.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Clizby Wampuscat said:
If it is so clear then why do Christians not agree on almost every point of morality and doctrine? Such as abortion, LGBT issues, gay marriage, divorce etc.
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First off, out of those, only divorce is directly addressed in scripture. Homosexuality is certainly listed as a sin, but the question of laws regarding it is not.
The ten commandments are pretty specific.

And Jesus adds to that with the sermon on the mount to show us what is right and what isn't.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Wildswanderer said:
First off, out of those, only divorce is directly addressed in scripture. Homosexuality is certainly listed as a sin, but the question of laws regarding it is not.
The ten commandments are pretty specific.

And Jesus adds to that with the sermon on the mount to show us what is right and what isn't.
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This does not answer my question as to why Christians cannot agree on morality which leads to the conclusion it is subjective to each believer just like non believers.

Do you think life is preferable to death and suffering should be minimized.?
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Clizby Wampuscat said:
This does not answer my question as to why Christians cannot agree on morality which leads to the conclusion it is subjective to each believer just like non believers.

Do you think life is preferable to death and suffering should be minimized.?
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Yes that's why I'm anti abortion.

And just because believers differ doesn't mean God didn't tell us. It means not everyone wants to listen.
 
Brian2

Brian2

Veteran Member
Clizby Wampuscat said:
I will accuse God until it explains why the suffering is needed. If I beat my son every day but there was a good reason for it long term and never told him why that would be immoral and just being a jerk. Job wanted some answers and all God did was tell him to shut up and take it.
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In the end God gave Job more understanding of who He is and how great He is and that He knows what He is going and what He allows to happen and it is for good reason even if we don't know why at the moment.
But it is easy to have a downer on God and not thank Him for all the good things He has given us.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Brian2 said:
In the end God gave Job more understanding of who He is and how great He is and that He knows what He is going and what He allows to happen and it is for good reason even if we don't know why at the moment.
But it is easy to have a downer on God and not thank Him for all the good things He has given us.
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Would you say this to a wife that was beaten by her husband regularly? You should thank your husband for providing food and shelter in between beatings?
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Brian2 said:
In the end God gave Job more understanding of who He is and how great He is and that He knows what He is going and what He allows to happen and it is for good reason even if we don't know why at the moment.
But it is easy to have a downer on God and not thank Him for all the good things He has given us.
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Yeah, that's the thing about the Bible. It warps one's moral compass into thinking that such terrible things are acts of love when they aren't.
 
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