Is God responsible for suffering?

[Falvlun]

Is he more responsible than a dad is when he fathers a son in this world?

Yes. Last I checked human dads don't design humans or create universes.

 

[Sir Doom]

God is our father. We are his 30 year old sons. Do we love to be alive and in this present natural world?

A healthy person will answer yes, without the bad points, i love to live life in this world of elements, plants, animals and mankind. But without the many unpleasantries is possible, no hurt, no saddness, no tired, no death at the end. That is what God has created us to be. Healthy people with this attitude.

A child can say the same about is dad. Dad, why did you bring me into this world?

Son, "don't you want to live here and grow up as a human being?"

Yes, i do want to live as a person in this natural world, i can do things, i can have so much fun, i am interested in quite a few things here

The dad then tells his son that he too thinks that life is good and fun and that is why he brought him into this natural physical world.


We are the son, God is the dad. What is it now again that we are diss-satisfied with? I quite forgot the question.

You quoted the question in your response. Obviously, your answer has nothing to do with my question. Please try again.

 

[dan b]

Because God is called our father in the Bible, therefore the relationship is exactly as a father and son relationship. God knows that because we have been instructed to call him "father" that we can assuve the same treatment that would be given to a son. That is where it stands for Christians. For others, i suppose they would have to make their own arrangements. Look how mankind has followed his lead, like father like son. Our Civilizational history corresponds as if it has followed God's seven day Genesis creation. Truly the sons/us do follow and imitate the father/God.....

 

[dan b]

 

[BBTimeless]

This, in my opinion, is one of the most important questions in regards to discerning the Christian perspective of God. That perspective being that God is all knowing, all powerful, and still one of the good guys. God being one of the good guys is supported through the revelation of Himself through the life of Christ.

This is all fine and well but the question still remains: if God is the good guy with all the power, why does all this bad crap keep happening? A theologian by the name of Leslie Weatherhead presents an argument that I find interesting. He argues that to answer that question with one idea is far too simplistic and he breaks it down into three.

1. God's Intentional Will, that is, what God intended from the beginning. If there was no resistance, derailment, or any other form of distraction, this would be his will.
2. God's Circumstantial Will. Well, crap, due to the wickedness of man, something has gone wrong. Within that framework of evil created by an outside force (that's us), what is the will of God now? God did not intend for Hitler to murder 11 million people, but not that is has happened, within that box, what must be done?
3. God's Ultimate Will: Despite all that crap happening, the ultimate mission of God is going to be completed anyway. In a sense, God is outsmarting all of the bad things that happen and says "HA! Even though that atrocity happened, my ultimate will shall be done."

So, is God responsible for suffering? According to Weatherhead, no. God does not intend people to suffer, certain individuals intend for men to suffer. And if those people MUST suffer (due to the wickedness of a man's intention) then God's circumstantial will kicks in. And, despite that suffering, God's ultimate will is going to be completed anyway.

Of course, this is not water-tight, but it is an interesting idea to kick around.

 

[Krishna Chaitanya]

My question is: is God responsible for human suffering?

This question came about from a conversation me and my father-in-law had. He's a fundamentalist Christian. Since me and my fiance only have one car, he takes me to work, and normally we just listen to classical music, and talk about everyday life. But sometimes, he'll bring up biblical topics, particularly on Wednesdays. Last Wednesday, apparently the sermon was on Job. As my father-in-law was talking about the sermon and what he thought of it, he said something that, while I was mostly trying to just nod along (they're in denial that I'm a Buddhist, and still think of me as a Christian), completely floored me, as I couldn't comprehend the logic that went into this statement.

So, he was discussing Job's suffering. He mentioned how Satan came to God, and asked that he be allowed to tempt him and make him suffer, in order to show God that Job would curse him if he didn't have such a good life as he had. God allowed Satan, on three different times, to perform three different torments. And then this is what my father-in-law said: "Some people ask why God makes people suffer? But in the story of Job, God didn't make Job suffer, God allowed Satan to make Job suffer, so God's innocence and goodness was left intact." I couldn't possibly comprehend the logic that went into this thought. It's the same as saying Hitler wasn't responsible for the Holocaust, because he wasn't the one doing all the experiments on the Jews. He then said that people ask "why do good people suffer?" He then made the statement that no one is good, so the question is invalid. But then he mentioned people that give millions to charities and to help those less fortunate, and admitted that he didn't have an easy answer.

So, is God responsible for people's suffering?

Hi,

This question is very crucial for any aspiring spiritualist as it touches upon multiple areas - 'nature of God, nature of living entities, suffering, pain, Satan/Maya etc.' . I can provide an answer from the Vedic perspective. I cannot accurately present from the perspective of the Christian concept of God as I am not aware of many of the scriptural and logical intricacies of the biblical literature.

The following points may throw some light on your question.

1. According to the Vedas, the living entity (soul/atman) is spiritual in nature and the characteristics of such a "spiritual entity" are sat-cid-ananda (meaning that the living being is intrinsically eternal, full of knowledge and bliss). Since one of the characteristic of this spirit soul is bliss, the living entity ("soul") can never suffer. This is also the reason why people exhibit the characteristics of curiosity, desire for happiness and long, healthy life.

2. Body is a machine made up of dead elements. The consciousness of the soul flows through this dead matter and provides the necessary activation to animate life in the way it exists. So, matter is not conscious and hence cannot experience feelings - so, body is also not experiencing suffering.

3. Now the question is: On one hand, if the body (matter -> unconscious) cannot experience suffering and the soul cannot suffer by the virtue of being spiritual, then who is suffering? This is explained as follows:
- When the consciousness of the pure spirit soul comes in contact with material energy, it becomes contaminated and the soul "(MIS)IDENTIFIES" with matter. In other words, the living entity starts thinking that he/she is the body (or) mind (or) intellect etc. due to what is called "false-ego" (ahankara). This mis-identification is the cause of suffering. When the illusion of false ego is dispelled by understanding that the soul is not material and is a member of the spiritual creation, the embodied being no longer experiences suffering (though there is pain due to the virtue/curse of being in the material body).

4. That being said: 'It is an indubitable fact that there is lot of pain in this world - the above points do not address this pain issue, rather they focus on the reason for experiencing suffering'.
The reason why good people do suffer is due to the sinful activities of past lives, whereas the reason for the pain experienced (which is subtly different from suffering) by the saints like Jesus Christ etc. (who do not have an account of past sinful activity as descend from the kingdom of God for specific purpose of delivering the misled living entities from illusion) is that,
- They are experiencing pain because of reaping the sinful reactions of their dependents and those who are the objects of their compassion/mercy.
- God is utilizing this example of theirs to dilineate their glorious quality of showing compassion to the most unqualified beings in even such unfathomably hostile circumstances (like crucification etc.). This is why those saints are remembered even now unlike ordinary people.

5. There is a similarity and difference between the abrahamic concept of Satan and the Vedic concept of Maya (illusory energy of God). The main similarity is that both facilitate the suffering of the living beings, whereas the difference is that Satan is seen in some sense as independent of God, whereas Maya is a subordinate of God who serves the embodied living entities under the instruction of God by keeping them in illusion as per the desire (free-will) of the living entities to be independent of God and his spiritual creation.

6. In the perspective of the living beings, God is like sun and maya is like darkness. The following analogy from Vedic scriptures would make things more clear:
- When one faces the sun, he does not see shadow (darkness); whereas when he/she turns away from the sun, darkness is visible (shadow). Similarly, when the living entities are in their natural state of loving and serving God and other entities, they don't experience suffering (though there may be pain if they are present in material world).
- Further, when the living entity turns away from God by utilizing free will, suffering (darkness) comes into picture.
- Indirectly, the sun (God) is the source of shadow (darkness/illusion), yet there is no darkness (illusion) present in the sun (God).

7. Hence, God is all good and we (the living entities) are also all good, the badness comes from the fact that the false-ego (due to repeated misuse of free-will) makes one act in the bad manner. This is also the reason why the living being suffers the reactions for his/her activities and not God though he provides the framework to make it possible.

8. Another important point is that: Maya (the agent of God responsible for illusion) is also good/compassionate (as she is a servant of God), but she takes up the "job" of an apparently bad-master of the living entities as a "service" to God.

9. The goal of different spiritual teachers and even maya (illusion) is the same: To facilitate the self (and God) realization of the living entities by elevating their consciousness via a set of principles and help them return back to their own home (the spiritual kingdom of God) where there is permanent happiness of selfless service/love to other entities and God.

I know that its a whole lot of arguments that would take time to sink in , nevertheless I hope it helps in providing some clarification that can help you practice spirituality with more conviction.

Thanks,
Chaitanya

PS. Since the living entities are minute part and parcel of God, they also have some independence since God is supremely independent. This independence is a characteristic of the relation between God and living entities called love. This is easy to understand even from a material perspective: 'In true love, the lover wants to serve the desire of the beloved (providing independence of thought/desire), rather than imposing his/her desire on the beloved. The beloved, who truly understands the lover would want to give back that independence to the lover, thus following the will of the lover'. Similarly since God is all loving, though he is the provider of everything, he does not force the living entities to succumb to his desire, however the living entities who have realized that love and start reciprocating, surrender that free-will back to God. In other words, they align their desire to the desire of God and hence exhibit God's spirit of compassion, love etc.'.

 

[atanu]

The world is an illusion(Maya) only for those who are part of the "root of the tree of life." Then you are living underground and just following the repeating cycles of nature. Then you have karma and reincarnation. Because your live, die, get swallowed up by what eats you and live again as it.


But Jesus Christ brought us a possibliity to leaave this endless cycle of nature and join the spiritual existence which never ends. To understand this you can only enter if you empty your present cup of preconcieved ideas to allow it to be re-filled with the new. First you must accomplish your Yoga.

Thank you Dan b for your enlightened reply and advice.

I understand then that God is responsible for creating superior 'your kind', mediocre 'my kind' and also the abominable rapists, murderers etc. Eventually, god is then responsible for those abominable acts/happenings.

 

[dan b]

Thank you Dan b for your enlightened reply and advice.

I understand then that God is responsible for creating superior 'your kind', mediocre 'my kind' and also the abominable rapists, murderers etc. Eventually, god is then responsible for those abominable acts/happenings.

Oh, i'm glad I'm here talking with a Yogi. Well, no, God is beyond this world of cause and effect, of action and reaction, of the endless cycles of births and deaths that marks this material natural world apart from eternity and infinity.

So there is no such thing as"being responsible" or being the "cause" of anything in God's order of existence. In fact the place where God lives is beyond the concepts of "existence." So God is not 'responsible. Responsibility is only in the underground would of Maya. There, in Maya, everything is just an illusion. You know, you study Hinduism.

Let us talk about the difference between the world were everything is responsible for the effects that come after it and, a world where everything is free from being an effect and from being a cause. God is there. To compare the two is like trying to estemate the value of an orange against the value of an apple. There is not comparison. What say you?

 

[nazz]

This, in my opinion, is one of the most important questions in regards to discerning the Christian perspective of God. That perspective being that God is all knowing, all powerful, and still one of the good guys. God being one of the good guys is supported through the revelation of Himself through the life of Christ.

This is all fine and well but the question still remains: if God is the good guy with all the power, why does all this bad crap keep happening? A theologian by the name of Leslie Weatherhead presents an argument that I find interesting. He argues that to answer that question with one idea is far too simplistic and he breaks it down into three.

1. God's Intentional Will, that is, what God intended from the beginning. If there was no resistance, derailment, or any other form of distraction, this would be his will.
2. God's Circumstantial Will. Well, crap, due to the wickedness of man, something has gone wrong. Within that framework of evil created by an outside force (that's us), what is the will of God now? God did not intend for Hitler to murder 11 million people, but not that is has happened, within that box, what must be done?
3. God's Ultimate Will: Despite all that crap happening, the ultimate mission of God is going to be completed anyway. In a sense, God is outsmarting all of the bad things that happen and says "HA! Even though that atrocity happened, my ultimate will shall be done."

So, is God responsible for suffering? According to Weatherhead, no. God does not intend people to suffer, certain individuals intend for men to suffer. And if those people MUST suffer (due to the wickedness of a man's intention) then God's circumstantial will kicks in. And, despite that suffering, God's ultimate will is going to be completed anyway.

Of course, this is not water-tight, but it is an interesting idea to kick around.

I'm sorry to say but more like a bucket full of holes spewing water in every direction.

But I will leave it to someone else to demolish this argument.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

This, in my opinion, is one of the most important questions in regards to discerning the Christian perspective of God. That perspective being that God is all knowing, all powerful, and still one of the good guys. God being one of the good guys is supported through the revelation of Himself through the life of Christ.

This is all fine and well but the question still remains: if God is the good guy with all the power, why does all this bad crap keep happening? A theologian by the name of Leslie Weatherhead presents an argument that I find interesting. He argues that to answer that question with one idea is far too simplistic and he breaks it down into three.

1. God's Intentional Will, that is, what God intended from the beginning. If there was no resistance, derailment, or any other form of distraction, this would be his will.
2. God's Circumstantial Will. Well, crap, due to the wickedness of man, something has gone wrong. Within that framework of evil created by an outside force (that's us), what is the will of God now? God did not intend for Hitler to murder 11 million people, but not that is has happened, within that box, what must be done?
3. God's Ultimate Will: Despite all that crap happening, the ultimate mission of God is going to be completed anyway. In a sense, God is outsmarting all of the bad things that happen and says "HA! Even though that atrocity happened, my ultimate will shall be done."

So, is God responsible for suffering? According to Weatherhead, no. God does not intend people to suffer, certain individuals intend for men to suffer. And if those people MUST suffer (due to the wickedness of a man's intention) then God's circumstantial will kicks in. And, despite that suffering, God's ultimate will is going to be completed anyway.

Of course, this is not water-tight, but it is an interesting idea to kick around.

Interesting, yes, but I do see a few problems with it.

2. ...Within that framework of evil created by an outside force (that's us)...

The problem here is that the Bible says god created evil. If god is creator of all things, then this also has to include evil, for whatever reason. This goes back to an earlier post of mine here. This attempts to justify god's innocence in the matter by placing the blame on man for something he is not ultimately responsible for.

3. God's Ultimate Will: Despite all that crap happening, the ultimate mission of God is going to be completed anyway. In a sense, God is outsmarting all of the bad things that happen and says "HA! Even though that atrocity happened, my ultimate will shall be done."

Basically, the problem with this argument, and the argument as a whole, is it gives more power to man, who is not supposed to have that much, and takes away from god's, who is supposed to have all power. If man can do something that god never intended, it gives man an almost, if not an, equal amount of power to god.

It's an interesting concept, but just a rehashing of the argument used by many Abrahamic theologians that I pointed out in my post # 15.

 

[BBTimeless]

I'm sorry to say but more like a bucket full of holes spewing water in every direction.

But I will leave it to someone else to demolish this argument.

Or you can simply state it. You won't hurt my feelings because this isn't my perspective.

 

[BBTimeless]

Basically, the problem with this argument, and the argument as a whole, is it gives more power to man, who is not supposed to have that much, and takes away from god's, who is supposed to have all power. If man can do something that god never intended, it gives man an almost, if not an, equal amount of power to god.

It's an interesting concept, but just a rehashing of the argument used by many Abrahamic theologians that I pointed out in my post # 15.

Welcome to the circular logic that is Christianity.

 

[LoverofJah4ever]

God is not responsible for suffering. In the garden of Eden, our forefather Adam and his wife Eve, joined Satan in rebellion. Their actions implied a desire to rule themselves. That is the core issue, can humans successfully rule themselves. In order to answer this challenge God had to step temporarily back and allowed humans to try every form of rulership. Had he intervened in any way, the issue would not have been settled. In the meantime, in the garden of Eden, he foretold at Gen.3:15, that Jesus would conquer Satan in time, and later prophecies would explain why we needed a savior. A perfect man sold us into slavery, a perfect man was needed as a ransom. (That's how Jesus fulfilled the law, eye for an eye, perfect man for perfect man) Also, because of his friendship with Abraham, God chose the Hebrews as the people that the Messiah would come from. He gave them instructions that protected them, and as long as they kept his commandments, he supported them, anyone from any nation was allowed to join them. Had they been faithful instead of rebellious, they would have been a testimony of how God's future rulership would be. I think anyone can see now that no human government cares for the needs of all of it's people. God's Kingdom will do so. We are living now in the time that Daniel 2:44 prophesied when God's Kingdom will soon crush and put an end to these unsuccessful governments and establish a perfect government with his son as King.

 

[JustWondering]

God is not responsible for suffering. In the garden of Eden, our forefather Adam and his wife Eve, joined Satan in rebellion. Their actions implied a desire to rule themselves. That is the core issue, can humans successfully rule themselves. In order to answer this challenge God had to step temporarily back and allowed humans to try every form of rulership. Had he intervened in any way, the issue would not have been settled. In the meantime, in the garden of Eden, he foretold at Gen.3:15, that Jesus would conquer Satan in time, and later prophecies would explain why we needed a savior. A perfect man sold us into slavery, a perfect man was needed as a ransom. (That's how Jesus fulfilled the law, eye for an eye, perfect man for perfect man) Also, because of his friendship with Abraham, God chose the Hebrews as the people that the Messiah would come from. He gave them instructions that protected them, and as long as they kept his commandments, he supported them, anyone from any nation was allowed to join them. Had they been faithful instead of rebellious, they would have been a testimony of how God's future rulership would be. I think anyone can see now that no human government cares for the needs of all of it's people. God's Kingdom will do so. We are living now in the time that Daniel 2:44 prophesied when God's Kingdom will soon crush and put an end to these unsuccessful governments and establish a perfect government with his son as King.

If there is a god that created everything, that god is responsible for everyones suffering. It created evil, pain, disease, natural disaters, etc... If such a being had a special, priviledged place for us in its universe I believe it would be more proactive and involved in our affairs. If there is a god I believe it has little to no concern about us and what we do. It has little to no concern about our suffering. We are not that important.

 

[LoverofJah4ever]

God created perfection, the Bible tells us the defect was their own. In Ezekiel shows that Satan's narcissism which resulted in his desire to rule was the reason he rebelled. He was smart enough not to challenge God's power, but challenged instead his right to rule. So, God has given the rebels the opportunity to present their case, prove whether or not ruling for themselves would be successful. Isn't it obvious that if he had intervened, removing the bad consequences of their rulership, it would have given the idea that they indeed were successful. By allowing all the consequences, he has established once and for all time that humans are horrible at ruling themselves. When God's Kingdom is established it will remove all of the suffering and resurrect those who died as a result of human ineptitude and greed.

 

[atanu]

Oh, i'm glad I'm here talking with a Yogi. Well, no, God is beyond this world of cause and effect, of action and reaction, of the endless cycles of births and deaths that marks this material natural world apart from eternity and infinity.

So there is no such thing as"being responsible" or being the "cause" of anything in God's order of existence. In fact the place where God lives is beyond the concepts of "existence." So God is not 'responsible. Responsibility is only in the underground would of Maya. There, in Maya, everything is just an illusion. You know, you study Hinduism.

Let us talk about the difference between the world were everything is responsible for the effects that come after it and, a world where everything is free from being an effect and from being a cause. God is there. To compare the two is like trying to estemate the value of an orange against the value of an apple. There is not comparison. What say you?

Yes. We understand that as air is not stained by stains on the objects in air, Brahman, the Immutable-Immortal Supreme, is ever untainted. But that I think differs from the common abrahamic religion's viewpoint. I am not sure.

 

[JustWondering]

God created perfection, the Bible tells us the defect was their own. In Ezekiel shows that Satan's narcissism which resulted in his desire to rule was the reason he rebelled. He was smart enough not to challenge God's power, but challenged instead his right to rule. So, God has given the rebels the opportunity to present their case, prove whether or not ruling for themselves would be successful. Isn't it obvious that if he had intervened, removing the bad consequences of their rulership, it would have given the idea that they indeed were successful. By allowing all the consequences, he has established once and for all time that humans are horrible at ruling themselves. When God's Kingdom is established it will remove all of the suffering and resurrect those who died as a result of human ineptitude and greed.

If god created us to serve him and be obedient, how is it our defect if we did not function as he intended? If we are supposed to have free will then we are NOT defective and ARE acting as intended. But if we are acting/functioning as intended why punish adam and eve as he did? If he wants blind obedence why give his creation free will in the first place? None of it makes any sense.

If there is some kind of creator god I believe it is indifferent about us.

 

[LoverofJah4ever]

It should have been easy to understand that one who created and gave freely to his creation would also know what is best for them. He set limits for them while providing all of their needs. They preferred to go their own way and he let them and obviously they made a big mistake because living without his direction and help has resulted in the chaotic world we live in.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

God is perfection, and made everything perfect. God is good, and didn't create evil. Man brought imperfection, man brought evil, man destroyed god's creation.

These are weird arguments. It seems that in order to take god out of the equation of man's suffering and evil, man is given pretty much as much power as god. This doesn't answer the question, it asks a whole host of new ones.

 

[atanu]

God is perfection, and made everything perfect. God is good, and didn't create evil. Man brought imperfection, man brought evil, man destroyed god's creation.

These are weird arguments. It seems that in order to take god out of the equation of man's suffering and evil, man is given pretty much as much power as god. This doesn't answer the question, it asks a whole host of new ones.

For the red part: Actually, the answer need not be same for everyone.