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Is God the source of evil too?

Levite

Higher and Higher
What you say is true, but, I do note that our liturgy, perhaps appropriately, sidesteps it when it euphemistically replaces ובורא רע with ובורא את הכל.

Jay's position is not without some merit either. Some translations allow for additional thought such as Neil Gillman's suggested Pythagorean alliterative reading of cosmos and chaos

I think its use in tefillah (liturgy) is a very different agenda of usage than as source material for theological aggadah. And if I recall right, when the alteration is discussed in Gemara Brachot, there is disagreement about why it is altered, and in the end, they never resolve why this is considered an appropriate alteration to euphemism.

I heard Rabbi Rachel Adler once note wryly that maybe they changed the wording in the liturgy because blessing God for creating evil is a lot to take before your first cup of coffee in the morning....

While I agree the altered translation can be useful for theologies of order and chaos, understanding רע in its most common sense is, I think, a much richer resource for helping generate any number of theologies of ethics, theodicies, and theologies of what Arthur Waskow referred to as "Godwrestling."
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
We do sidestep that in our liturgy, perhaps appropriately, when the liturgy euphemistically replaces ובורא רע with ובורא את הכל.

Jay's position is not without merit either. Some translations catch the ear and allow for additional thought such as Neil Gillman's suggested Pythagorean alliterative reading of cosmos and chaos
I suspect that the intent of the NJPS translation, along with those that mirror it, was not to sidestep some tradition but, rather, to accurately reflect the latest relevant scholarship.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
I suppose the next important question is how does one respond to their own respective conclusion. Is God actively or passively the source of evil. If God is actively the source and of all evil(behavior and intent), then how is it then that that we say he is good or just if we're to hate evil? It would seem to be a conflict of interest.
Actually, I'd also prefer to know how we're defining "evil".


God is the source of all. As we turn towards God we become more holy, as we turn away from God we become more evil or bad, sinful, use whatever term you like. Note how God is always in the equation. Evil represents our relationship to God or lack of.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
A big question I know, but what is the relationship between the existence of evil and God? We read in Genesis that God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, implying that God "knows Evil" and even allows the serpent to seduce Adam and Eve. There are other instances where God evokes evil such as: hardening Pharaoh's heart, using other nations to punish Israel and then vowing to punish the very same nations afterwards, commanding demons to torment Saul, and then Satan (but also attributed to God) tempting David to take a census.
I don't know if you've ever read the New Testament but I feel like it explains this rather well. God is not the cause of evil but he uses evil to bring about his plan. (James 1:13, Acts 2:22-28) Never doubt the sovereignty or plan of God. Evil may have its way for a period of time but God has a plan for evil.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
A big question I know, but what is the relationship between the existence of evil and God? We read in Genesis that God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, implying that God "knows Evil" and even allows the serpent to seduce Adam and Eve. There are other instances where God evokes evil such as: hardening Pharaoh's heart, using other nations to punish Israel and then vowing to punish the very same nations afterwards, commanding demons to torment Saul, and then Satan (but also attributed to God) tempting David to take a census.

God has revealed the true source of evil in the book of Job. And it certainly is not God.

Job 34:10 So listen to me, you men of understanding:*
It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly,+
For the Almighty to do wrong!+
11 For he will reward a man according to what he does+
And bring upon him the consequences of his ways.
12 For a certainty, God does not act wickedly;+
The Almighty does not pervert justice

God allows mankind to have freewill. This affords us the right to choose, so God had to allow satan to make the offer of rebellion to them. But lets be honest...they didn't have to take him up on his offer. They could have refused. If they did refuse, they would have demonstrated obedience to Gods law and thus respect for Gods right to make the rules and determine right from wrong. But obviously they didnt do that. They they chose to determine what would be right and wrong (good/evil) for themselves.

God still allows mankind freewill even today. It is man who determines what is good and bad. They make the rules, they break the rules, they cause the evil we see in the world because they refuse to be guided by what God says is right and wrong. If mankind allowed God to determine what is right and wrong (good/evil) then we wouldnt have any evil in the world today because everyone would be doing what is right and they would reject what is evil.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
God has revealed the true source of evil in the book of Job. And it certainly is not God.

Job 34:10 So listen to me, you men of understanding:*
It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly,+
For the Almighty to do wrong!+
11 For he will reward a man according to what he does+
And bring upon him the consequences of his ways.
12 For a certainty, God does not act wickedly;+
The Almighty does not pervert justice
.

That quote is not God speaking. It is Job's friend Elihu. That is his theological opinion. It is not a revelatory declaration.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
A big question I know, but what is the relationship between the existence of evil and God? We read in Genesis that God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, implying that God "knows Evil" and even allows the serpent to seduce Adam and Eve. There are other instances where God evokes evil such as: hardening Pharaoh's heart, using other nations to punish Israel and then vowing to punish the very same nations afterwards, commanding demons to torment Saul, and then Satan (but also attributed to God) tempting David to take a census.
Usually when we feel pain physically or emotionally, we call this evil. The person who seeks God seeks a way to separate good and evil and to have one without the other. At the same time we cannot make demands. Shouting doesn't seem to accomplish anything. We ask if there is a cause for suffering and if there is a direction we may travel to get away from it. Compassionately we try to draw a map with all of the evil on it, so that people in the future won't experience suffering like we do. We give advice for free. We ask questions about evil and good to determine their properties. Evil seems to be everywhere, but the world is full of good gifts, too. So we theorize that the source of all good is also the source of all suffering, but we don't stop appreciating the good just because there is evil.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I thought was writing in English. Apparently not.

This is Jeremiah 24:2 - It's talking about figs. Good figs, bad figs and the words for "bad" are forms of the word רע. It's not about law abiding figs vs. figs who rob banks.
הדוד אחד תאנים טבות מאד כתאני הבכרות והדוד אחד תאנים רעות מאד אשר לא תאכלנה מרע
… unless, figuratively speaking, it is.
 

idea

Question Everything
So you think that "evil" is the same as "sorrow" and "hard times"? It isn't, and because it isn't "I create light and darkness, happiness and sorrow.I, the Lord, do all of this."* and, "I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord."** send a far different message than "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."***


*Contemporary English Version
** New International Reader's Version
*** King James Version

I think a better translation of that scripture is God transforms darkness - a better translation of the word "create" is "transform".

I believe God is cleaning up a mess He did not make.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
מדה כנגד מדה
You do realize that both you and Levite are now going to come back as members of the California raisins?
(Actually you might, but Levite may be too young to get the allusion.)

It's sweet that you think that.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
That quote is not God speaking. It is Job's friend Elihu. That is his theological opinion. It is not a revelatory declaration.

Elihu was a man who knew his God and it is only Gods spirit that can reveal the nature of God to an individual. So Elihu was obviously someone worth listening to.....and God saw fit to have that mans declaration recorded in his holy writings.

Other servants of God have said the same thing about Jehovah.

2 Chronicles 19:7 Now let the fear of Jehovah be upon you.+ Be careful about what you do, for with Jehovah our God there is no injustice,+ no partiality,+ no bribe-taking.”+

Psalm 92:15 Declaring that Jehovah is upright. He is my Rock,+ in whom there is no unrighteousness.

Deuteronomy 32:4
The Rock, perfect is his activity,+For all his ways are justice.+
A God of faithfulness+ who is never unjust;+ Righteous and upright is he.


2 Samuel 22:31
The way of the true God is perfect;+The saying of Jehovah is refined.+He is a shield to all those taking refuge in him.

James 1:13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.

 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
Elihu was a man who knew his God and it is only Gods spirit that can reveal the nature of God to an individual. So Elihu was obviously someone worth listening to.....and God saw fit to have that mans declaration recorded in his holy writings.

Other servants of God have said the same thing about Jehovah.

2 Chronicles 19:7 Now let the fear of Jehovah be upon you.+ Be careful about what you do, for with Jehovah our God there is no injustice,+ no partiality,+ no bribe-taking.”+

Psalm 92:15 Declaring that Jehovah is upright. He is my Rock,+ in whom there is no unrighteousness.

Deuteronomy 32:4
The Rock, perfect is his activity,+For all his ways are justice.+
A God of faithfulness+ who is never unjust;+ Righteous and upright is he.


2 Samuel 22:31
The way of the true God is perfect;+The saying of Jehovah is refined.+He is a shield to all those taking refuge in him.

James 1:13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.

There is a difference between what God is as the source of everything and what God does as sovereign of all, ultimate judge, and carer for the helpless and vulnerable.

God consistently teaches and is the exemplar of justice and righteousness. But He gave human beings free will, despite knowing how they would abuse it against one another. He alone made the decision to create them that way. Thus He alone is responsible for the existence of evil in the universe, since evil is, per se, a malicious act committed with intent by a person or people.

God is the source of all things: He created all, no one else did so. Therefore all things have their source in Him, both good things and evil things. This is what Isaiah highlights. The only way around it is to argue either that God is not the sole authority in Creation, or not the source of all things, and/or not omnipotent.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
There is a difference between what God is as the source of everything and what God does as sovereign of all, ultimate judge, and carer for the helpless and vulnerable.

God consistently teaches and is the exemplar of justice and righteousness. But He gave human beings free will, despite knowing how they would abuse it against one another. He alone made the decision to create them that way. Thus He alone is responsible for the existence of evil in the universe, since evil is, per se, a malicious act committed with intent by a person or people.

I dont agree with that at all.

We may have free will, but that does not give us the right to behave like animals. And if we choose to do so, that does not make God responsible for it.

We alone are responsible for our behaviors. Blaming God for it is like blaming the gun for killing someone. We have chosen to bring evil upon ourselves by our actions, no one else. Adam and Eve had the ability to reject rebellion just as we today have the ability to reject it.

God is the source of all things: He created all, no one else did so. Therefore all things have their source in Him, both good things and evil things. This is what Isaiah highlights. The only way around it is to argue either that God is not the sole authority in Creation, or not the source of all things, and/or not omnipotent.

I think people hold this view because God has permitted evil. I just dont know where they get the idea that he causes it???
 

Crucru

New Member
Philosophically speaking, atleast from my perspective, God is the source of good and evil. I believe all the religious doctrines we gather from the bible, Quran, and the Torah, which say otherwise, are nothing more than what the 'Divine' deems logical for an illogical species of sorts. I personally believe we're here for a reason, and/or with purpose, and anything we can gather from abrahamic religious texts help fulfil that purpose. In short, there's no right or wrong answer or doctrine, only the purpose it serves for mankind, whether we deem it logical, illogical, right, wrong, or insane.

For example, The whole story of the fallen angel lucifer. Do I personally really believe in it, litterally? Nah. GTFO. However, interpreting the story in the first place is what opened my mind to ask bigger questions; questions that make the whole story irrelevant. Questions about what evil is, where it comes from, and the purpose it serves. I have multiple personal beliefs about it that I have yet to be seen taught in any doctrine, but yes, it comes from God.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I dont agree with that at all.

We may have free will, but that does not give us the right to behave like animals. And if we choose to do so, that does not make God responsible for it.

We alone are responsible for our behaviors. Blaming God for it is like blaming the gun for killing someone. We have chosen to bring evil upon ourselves by our actions, no one else. Adam and Eve had the ability to reject rebellion just as we today have the ability to reject it.

God made us. He made us with free will. He did so with the full knowledge-- being omniscient-- that we would abuse it by choosing to perpetrate evil on others.

That does not make God directly responsible for specific evil acts that human beings do. But it does make God ultimately responsible for enabling us to do evil.

To use your gun analogy-- which, to be fair, I am unsure is really a decent comparison-- yes, the direct responsibility for shooting someone belongs to the person who pulls the trigger. But if an adult gives a gun to an adolescent child, and says, "Now, don't shoot anyone with that!" and then leaves the child to their own devices, that adult bears some responsibility when the kid starts blowing people away.

No one is suggesting that because God, as the source of all things, also created evil, that makes doing evil okay, or that it absolves us of fault when we do evil actions.

But ultimately, we can say that God is omnibenevolent or we can say that God is the source of all things. We can't say both.

I also think your implication about evil being the result of Adam and Eve ignores God's culpability for essentially doing the one thing any parent knows will backfire instantly: "OK, you can do whatever you want as long as you don't touch X. Everything else is okay. Just stay far away from X." We all know that's the surest way in the world to get a small child to do something as soon as they think you're not looking. And Adam and Eve were essentially children, in terms of their development. Their story is not about evil, it's a allegory for growing up and having to live in the real world.

I know Christians read it differently: I simply don't see that reading, nor do I have any reason to embrace it. But even in the Christian reading, God still either created the devil (or tolerated his existence and actions as a rebel, which amounts to the same thing), or one has to presume God not powerful enough to eliminate the devil. So God is still either not omnipotent or not the source of all things.


I think people hold this view because God has permitted evil. I just dont know where they get the idea that he causes it???

Personally, I think it is much more compelling to consider a God who is capable of evil but refuses to do so. That His teachings in fact represent advice to refrain from behavior analogous to acts of refraining that He Himself does.

Granted, it also raises questions about why He values free will enough to create us with it even knowing what we will do with it. But I would rather struggle with that question than either end up with multiple gods or a milquetoast God who loathes evil in all forms but is impotent against it.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Thanks for your reply Levi. I heard a very good story that well illustrated the reason why God has permitted evil and suffering to continue.
It was the story of a classroom teacher who was challenged by one of his pupils. The teacher was showing the class how to complete a difficult math equation when one of the students declared to the teacher and all his classmates that he had a better way to solve the equation.
The way the teacher handled the situation was interesting. He could have simply sent the disruptive student off to the principles office and continued on with his lesson, but he didnt. Rather he handed the student a piece of chalk and asked him to show the class his solution. The result showed the student to be in error and all his classmates laughed at him and he became the button of jokes for a long time.

What do you think of the teachers course of action? Should he have allowed the student the opportunity today make a fool of himself or should he have removed the student from the classroom without allowing him the opportunity to prove his case?
 
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RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
It's sweet that you think that.

It's because you look so young - unlike Jay, metis and myself who look more like this:

upload_2015-3-2_11-49-45.jpeg
 
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