Is Healthcare a "right" and should it have limits on how much is consumed and by whom?

[Shaul]

Yeah, everyone's paying for each others healthcare in Israel and it's a government forced option.

No, that isn’t correct. Nobody in Israel pays for others healthcare. Each person pays for his own private insurance. Again, you don’t seem to understand how insurance actually works, despite my providing a link which explains it. You’re done.

 

[dianaiad]

I've figured the one percenters would certainly pay more into my proposed UBI benefit system and universal Medicare A coverage, than they'd financially get back themselves from this; but anybody, who had made more than $460,000 of taxable income last year, should be happy to give back a little more to society in order to reduce poverty. Right?

Ah, but that's the problem.

One of my favorite political cartoons depicts two men walking down the road; one liberal and one conservative. The Conservative says: "I think that we, as private citizens, should give more to charity and to help others." The liberal, as he reaches into the conserative's back pocket for the wallet, says "you are quite right. I think you should give more, too."

There are several organizations, private and religious, that do a far better job of helping those who need it than the government does.

....and Republicans/conservatives give more to these private charities than Democrats/liberals do. I did the 'google' thing, and it was funny; I didn't find even one article that claimed that Democrats were as charitable as Republicans (or liberals more giving than conservatives) but I found that every single left leaning article went to a great deal of weasling explanations as to why. More than one article dismissed giving by conservatives because 'of course' THEY only did so in order to get the tax benefits, or else that conservatives give more to religions than liberals do, and religious contributions somehow don't count.

Never mind that MOST of the charitable work done for those who need help are (whisper this one) religious groups,....

Sorry, went rambling there. However, it all goes to a very basic difference in outlook here. You imply that a group of people who agree with you have the right to force others to give THEIR money to 'reduce poverty' in a way that you approve of. Conservatives believe that they should have the right to decide where their money goes...and they, in greater numbers and to a greater degree, actually put their money into charitable causes.

So...why should anybody 'be happy' to be forced to give money to the government to support programs he not only disagrees with, but which do a far lousier job at 'reducing poverty' than the charity he'd have chosen himself? Why should anybody 'be happy' to be told by anybody ELSE what to do with that money?

We all pay taxes for the things the government must do; roads, police, military.....but when, for instance, the Salvation Army or Catholic Charities or the LDS Welfare program is so much better at 'welfare' than the government is, why should you...or anybody else...dictate that we MUST give our money to the government to do a lousy job at programs you like?

IF conservatives/Republicans were private skinflints who never gave money to anybody for anything, you might have a point. However, it is an acknowledged fact (reluctantly and with many excuses, yes, but acknowledged nontheless) that conservatives/Republicans are more charitable in both money and volunteerism than Democrats/liberals.

What that means, in sum, is this: when liberals spout about how worried they are about poverty and how much help others need, they are being hypocrites. They are quite certain that everybody ELSE should contribute, but they aren't all that willing to do so themselves.

 

[Lyndon]

No, that isn’t correct. Nobody in Israel pays for others healthcare. Each person pays for his own private insurance. Again, you don’t seem to understand how insurance actually works, despite my providing a link which explains it. You’re done.

that complete rubbish, my friend lives in Israel and gets free medical coverage, I'm assuming you don't live in Israel, because you don't seem to understand its system.

 

[Jumi]

No, that isn’t correct. Nobody in Israel pays for others healthcare. Each person pays for his own private insurance. Again, you don’t seem to understand how insurance actually works, despite my providing a link which explains it. You’re done.

I pay for some insurances, don't you? Because you don't seem to understand how insurance works... do you think your money is enough to pay for everything if you get need an expensive operation? No, it's the others paying for the insurance that pay for you. It's another type of collective risk sharing. If everyone in your country is forced to pay insurance, you're still paying for universal healthcare of someone else.

That or you are claiming the Isreali insurance system somehow different from all the rest of the world.

 

[Lyndon]

The Israeli system appears to be more similar to Obamacare, where people are forced to buy health insurance

 

[Jumi]

The Israeli system appears to be more similar to Obamacare, where people are forced to buy health insurance

Sadly, US system is the most expensive in the world. Spends about same % GDP than Sweden in public healthcare and still needs to spend more on private healthcare than the rest of the world and manages a meager 31. place in life expectancy.

source:visualcapitalist.com

 

[Lyndon]

yet Republicans seem to live under some delusion that USA has best system in the world!!!

 

[dfnj]

I think healthcare is the prime example of how privatization does not work. We have the worst possible service at the highest possible cost. Plus we have to pay the overhead of all the exorbitant executive pay through the stealing of profits to pay for compensation and shareholder dividends.

Plus I think it is just immoral to profit off of other people's misfortunes. Or to profit over the creation of new workers who will be exploited by the system.

I think I read an article that said a $3000 medical procedure in foreign hospitals costs over $50,000 in the United States. Obviously we have cartels and monopolies gouging the American people.

 

[dfnj]

yet Republicans seem to live under some delusion that USA has best system in the world!!!

Best system at gouging the American people out of as much money as possible. It depends on your value system as to what "best" means.

 

[Lyndon]

Yes the Republicans do seem to be supportive of gouging the American people for money.

 

[ecco]

Ecco, I do not like personal insults. I had my fill of them at CARM, where attacking one's opponents by personally insulting them is SOP. I won't deal with it now.

So, you consider...

As I said in the above post, you really need to get educated before you comment.​

... as a personal insulting attack?

Several of your comments in post #67 belie an unerstanding of reality. As just one example, your comment...

If you (general you) don't want to take the risks and work the hours required to do that, and you (again, general you) just want a job that pays you enough to by the stuff you need and want, then consider what will happen to that job if you destroy the guy who hires you.

...implies that you are unaware that there are many people in this country who are working two full-time jobs and just keeping their heads above water.

I tend to call things as I see them. If you don't like my style of discussion, then don't engage in a conversation with me.

 

[ecco]

In Israel the universal healthcare is a requirement which is provided by choosing an insurance plan. Not a government tax based system. Similar to other required insurance, like car insurance. Freedom of choice and you aren’t required to pay for the insurance of others.

I don't know about Isreal, but I'm open to learning.

How is the law requiring people to purchase health insurance enforced?

In this country, we instituted a fine/penalty that the Republicans removed.

 

[ecco]

There is no right to health care. Rights are not bestowed by any government. Any purported healthcare right provided by any government can also be taken away by the government too. A government cannot take away something that truly is a right.

Based on that and what governments have taken away throughout the ages, there are no rights.

 

[dfnj]

The current system has plenty of rationing because people do not have enough money to pay all the co-pays required to get the healthcare they need.

 

[dfnj]

Based on that and what governments have taken away throughout the ages, there are no rights.

"We the people" implies we are all part of the same government.

 

[ecco]

Well you get a lot for the package, so why would I be complaining? People in my country are the happiest in the world, competing with other Nordic countries that have the same system. If I'm an average worker I can afford to travel to Thailand every year for two weeks, go skiing for a week and visit friends and relatives on Christmas. I heard many Americans can't spend so much time on holidays even with their lower taxes. So what are you working for...


Sounds more like you don't get it. Here I am enjoying the fact that I can go out any time of the day and not get robbed, have pure clean drinking water, safe high quality food. I can trust the police, the doctors and the firemen.

When Carribean countries adopt and implement systems such as yours, I'll hop on a plane and change my citizenship.

As good as your governmental policies are, where you live, it's just too darn cold.

 

[ecco]

When you pay for insurance you don’t pay for others.

I seriously doubt that your insurance company takes your premium money and pays for your healthcare and pockets the excess.

If that's your understanding of how insurance works, or ever worked, you are very, very wrong.

 

[ecco]

No, there are fundamental differences. A government system is involuntary and supported by the coercive powers of the government including taxation and use of force. Furthermore government are naturally more wasteful than private enterprises. Government programs should only be reserved for things a free market can not do (i.e. the common defense). Healthcare is not such a thing. It is better handle through private enterprises.

Worldwide healthcare cost/benefit statistics show a different picture.

 

[Jumi]

When Carribean countries adopt and implement systems such as yours, I'll hop on a plane and change my citizenship.

As good as your governmental policies are, where you live, it's just too darn cold.

You get used to it if you're born here. Actually the worst is if you live near the sea, then your bones will know what's cold.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A government that is in charge of everything and is responsible for granting us those rights?

Ultimately, there is no getting around the fact the state bestows rights and privileges, and if they don't grant them the citizenship does not have them. Thus it is up to the citizenship to be the stewards and protectors of their rights (of course all the "shouting fire in crowded theater" and "no guns for violent criminals," but for simplicity's sake those are deliberately not considered). But when the citizenship says "of course you can disregard multiple rights granted to us by the Bill of Rights because we're scared and have nothing to hide," the citizenship is failing to perform their basic duties as citizens. And will have neither freedom nor security, according to the sentiments of some of the Founders (and, really, they're right - though we do have freedom and security, just in all the wrong areas).