Is Heaven, Nirvana etc the goal?

[Trailblazer]

Thanks, Muffled. Every one in the family is better.

I'm very glad to hear that.

 

[Muffled]

It's a good question. I've asked myself the same.

Let me give you a tidbit of background. I have had moments of grave doubt in my past, especially during times of deep depression, when all sense of the divine deadens. When I am in those times of pain of course it is hard not to wonder things like, if there is a loving God, why would he allow such unjust suffering. I have begun to doubt everything, from the afterlife to the very existence of God.

It seems that my doubts only reach that level of severity when I'm clinically depressed, thank goodness. But I do have to adjust my theology to account for the possibilities the get me to see.

For example, during one such episode, I took a formal vow that should it turn out that there is no God, I would still live my life as though God existed, since I saw that life to be the best of all possible lives.

In Judaism, I am taught that we obey God for the sake of our covenant. God is worthy to be obeyed simply because he is God.

But for me it is also tied up in this existential awareness that the moral religious life is the best of all possible lives, even should God turn out not to exist. So, most of the time, I believe in God, and obey out of love and awe. But even when my sense of the divine is deadened, I'm still right in there, observing my covenant.

I believe in that also. Fortunately receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior makes that kind of life possible and certifies the existence of God as well.

 

[Muffled]

I think it's wise to proceed on the basis that, as Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 says,

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.
They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

And if that turns out to be wrong, you've lost nothing.

Meanwhile, if you simply plan to leave this planet a somewhat better place than you found it, you'll have lived well and on that basis you can die well.

I believe you have to spend eternity n the fires of Hell. I consider that a loss.

 

[Muffled]

My goal in this life is to win the Good Pleasure of God. I won’t know that I don’t think, until I reach the next world.

I believe the only way to know that is to have a personal relationship with God. That is how I know that I am pleasing Him. Obviously not everything I want is good for me or something God will provide for me.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe you have to spend eternity n the fires of Hell. I consider that a loss.

I believe that there is no such thing as 'the fires of hell' but rather that hell is the eternal separation from God.
Baha'ullah explained how we get to hell in the last sentence of this passage.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

 

[blü 2]

I believe you have to spend eternity n the fires of Hell. I consider that a loss.

Given real gods and real souls, what kind of statement would sending souls to hell for eternity make about the being who did such things?

Egomania, ruthless despotism, mindless intolerance, malevolence, for a start, surely? Certainly not an omniscient, omnipotent, perfect or benevolent entity ─ an omniscient, omnipotent, perfect being would know that [he]'d made the universe in full perfect awareness and intention of everything that would ever happen in it, already perfectly aware that no atom, let alone any being, could ever deviate even by the width of a quark from what [he] perfectly foresaw. That's why, if you're omnipotent, all bucks stop at your desk.

Built into this is the awareness that humans don't have free will in any absolute sense, only relative to a few local situations. In particular they / we are not free to make decisions independently of our brain's evolved decision-making processes, which of course we get from our genes, and over which we personally have no control.

I consider the statement from Ecclesiastes to be a realistic appraisal of the actual situation. But then, should I take it that in your view the author of that passage is spending eternity in the fires of Hell?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I hear a lot of Christians say they are looking forward to eternity in Heaven. Hindus say they want to become one with God and Buddhists say they want to reach Nirvana.

However the Gospel (Good news) is that people will spend eternity in a new body on earth.

Perhaps what God thinks is good is different from what people thing is good.

I think we are already... here.

 

[Trailblazer]

Given real gods and real souls, what kind of statement would sending souls to hell for eternity make about the being who did such things?

Don't worry, the real God does not send anyone to hell... That's just Christian beliefs based upon misinterpretation of the Bible.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that there is no such thing as 'the fires of hell' but rather that hell is the eternal separation from God.
Baha'ullah explained how we get to hell in the last sentence of this passage.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

I believe what the Bible says about Hell and that is not what you are saying.

I see nothing in that passage about Hell.

 

[Muffled]

Don't worry, the real God does not send anyone to hell... That's just Christian beliefs based upon misinterpretation of the Bible.

I believe you should show me what I have misinterpreted in this: Rev 20:5 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Muffled]

I think we are already... here.

Where?

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe what the Bible says about Hell and that is not what you are saying.

I see nothing in that passage about Hell.

This is the part of the passage that refers to hell:
If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe you should show me what I have misinterpreted in this: Rev 20:5 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Lake of Fire is not intended to be interpreted literally, it is metaphorical.
There is no actual lake with fire in it.
The Lake of Fire is symbolic for hell, which is distance from God.
Hell is distance from God and heaven is nearness to God.
Heaven and hell are states of the soul that is near or far from God.
We get near to God by knowing and believing in God through God's Manifestations such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Muffled]

The Lake of Fire is not intended to be interpreted literally, it is metaphorical.
There is no actual lake with fire in it.
The Lake of Fire is symbolic for hell, which is distance from God.
Hell is distance from God and heaven is nearness to God.
Heaven and hell are states of the soul that is near or far from God.
We get near to God by knowing and believing in God through God's Manifestations such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

I believe there is no indication of metaphor. What standard are you using to determine a metaphor.

A metaphor is a figure of speech that, for rhetorical effect, directly refers to one thing by mentioning another - Wikipedia

The example given by wikipedia says that you can tell a metaphor if it is something well known not to be literal. The lake of fire is scientific knowledge and does not fit that criteria.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe there is no indication of metaphor. What standard are you using to determine a metaphor.

A metaphor is a figure of speech that, for rhetorical effect, directly refers to one thing by mentioning another - Wikipedia

The example given by wikipedia says that you can tell a metaphor if it is something well known not to be literal. The lake of fire is scientific knowledge and does not fit that criteria.

The lake of fire is scientific knowledge? Please explain.

 

[Muffled]

The lake of fire is scientific knowledge? Please explain.

The lake of fire is scientific knowledge? Please explain.

• Outer Core: The outer core, which is liquid, is about 1300 miles (2092 km) thick. Both the inner and outer cores consist primarily of iron and nickel and are extremely hot with temperatures ranging from 7200–9000℉ (4000–5000℃). - From Core to Crust: Defining Earth’s Layers

 

[Trailblazer]

• Outer Core: The outer core, which is liquid, is about 1300 miles (2092 km) thick. Both the inner and outer cores consist primarily of iron and nickel and are extremely hot with temperatures ranging from 7200–9000℉ (4000–5000℃). - From Core to Crust: Defining Earth’s Layers

So this is the lake of fire that you believe is hell?

 

[Muffled]

This sounds like a classic case of reincarnation. Interesting, didn't think Christianity supported that.

I believe it is not classic reincarnation which has a Hindu source but it is a form of reincarnation as the Resurrection is also.

I believe the church in general rejects reincarnation because of the Hindu source however the Bible does have an instance of it in the person of John the Baptist who is Elijah reincarnated.

I believe the RCC has had a belief that the end time resurrection would take place in the same body if it were buried in Holy ground. I believe that is superstition. Paul describes the resurrection in I Cor 15 with a clear indication that it is a new body.

 

[Muffled]

So this is the lake of fire that you believe is hell?

I believe it is referred to as Hell because of Norse myth which places the shapeshifter Hel in an entrance way to the inner fire. We call those volcanic vents.

 

[Muffled]

I think we are already... here.

I believe what we have here is a lot of sin. Thank God eternal life does not come with sin.