Is ISIS a disaster for all muslims?

[gnostic]

I watch the news and see ISIS being demonized, as if their evil is somehow much worse than western evil. Killing over resources is killing no matter who is doing it, but don't tell that to the consumers of western nations, they like to feel they are better.

Demonised?

They had fricking bloody filmed their own bloodthirsty actions and put it on the Internet themselves.

They are even training to boys to use guns. For what possible reason would irresponsible adults would put semi-automatic guns on pre-teenager boys.

Take off your blinders from your eyes, steeltoes.

 

[outhouse]

But you got to admit, that the strategy of Bush and his military advisers were utterly incompetent, and caused more damages to the Iraqi people, and the world economy, as well as his own country.

My problem is I do not know all the details behind the scenes that were used to made the decision to go over.


Having all that knowledge might not change the debacle it turned out to be.


People only focus on the perceived evil, as apposed to the lesser of two evils. And that is not known until the show is over.

And even then the choice may have been for the lessor evil, that turned out to not be lessor due to unforeseen circumstances.


And yes it was a clown show.

 

[outhouse]

Take off your blinders from your eyes, steeltoes.

Good luck with that.

I keep him/her on ignore most of the time for that line of thought, I wont call it reasoning.

 

[Poeticus]

I watch the news and see ISIS being demonized, as if their evil is somehow much worse than western evil. Killing over resources is killing no matter who is doing it, but don't tell that to the consumers of western nations, they like to feel they are better.

This is a very troubling post. To downplay the religious zealotry of the IS as a mere "killing over resources" is the very thing that both indirectly and directly excuses radical acts of [religious] outward-rigorism. The condemnation the IS receives is well justified. The condemnation should be addressed, not the socio-cultural background of the one doing the condemning. Otherwise, it's just strawmanning.

 

[steeltoes]

Demonised?

They had fricking bloody filmed their own bloodthirsty actions and put it on the Internet themselves.

They are even training to boys to use guns. For what possible reason would irresponsible adults would put semi-automatic guns on pre-teenager boys.

Take off your blinders from your eyes, steeltoes.

Washington spawned ISIS. Now the Shock and Awe is seen from the other side, the CIA call it blow back. Don't pretend that ISIS is any more barbaric than western invaders and occupiers. I saw the pictures and the footage of the tortures and the killings by western occupiers. There was no reason to invade Iraq in the first place, nothing was accomplished and now we have this, it's horrific, but we can't pretend to be any better than the worst of them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Washington spawned ISIS. Now the Shock and Awe is seen from the other side, the CIA call it blow back. Don't pretend that ISIS is any more barbaric than western invaders and occupiers. I saw the pictures and the footage of the tortures and the killings by western occupiers. There was no reason to invade Iraq in the first place, nothing was accomplished and now we have this, it's horrific, but we can't pretend to be any better than the worst of them.

So true. :clap

Let's not forget all those brutal dictators that the US propped up as they terrorized and brutalized their countries just so the American fat cats could make a buck. I'm not sure if blowback is the correct word, either, since it's debatable if such things are really "unintended".

 

[gnostic]

My problem is I do not know all the details behind the scenes that were used to made the decision to go over.

Having all that knowledge might not change the debacle it turned out to be.

People only focus on the perceived evil, as apposed to the lesser of two evils. And that is not known until the show is over.

And even then the choice may have been for the lessor evil, that turned out to not be lessor due to unforeseen circumstances.

And yes it was a clown show.

Look it at this way.

After 9-11, Bush and most people thought that al-Qaeda, and believe in his intelligence that Bin Laden was hidden in Afghanistan, protected by the Talibans, so he into the war against the Talibans, drove them out and into Pakistan, possibly with Bin Laden with them.

The war in Afghanistan was costly, and there were no ways that Afghanistan could finance his war, because it is poor in natural resources.

So he turn his attention away from the Talibans and al-Qaeda, and focus on Saddam.

Iraq on the other hand were rich in oil. I think Bush and his aides thought that can get rid off Saddam, and hopefully financed his war through oil and reconstruction of Iraq.

Back in World War 2, the US became a rich country after the war, with reconstructions of Germany and Japan, and I think they were hoping the same could happen with reconstruction of Iraq. Except, he and his aides didn't count on it backfiring on their face. They thought by introducing "real" democracy, they could get rich, but they didn't count on so many things:

1. The lawlessness went on for so long, when the US had entire Iraqi police and armed forces disbanded.
   • It allowed widespread looting and destruction.
   • It allowed terrorists to come in, because there were no one to patrol the borders.
2. No one trust each others.
3. Those who form government were incompetent and corrupted.
4. And there were the pesky thing about 3 different factions:
   • The Sunni have hatred for the Shiites.
   • The Shiites hated them back.
   • And both of them hate and distrust the Kurds.
5. So that mean sectarian violence, mainly between the Sunni and Shiites.
6. And lastly, the Sunni invited the al-Qaeda and then ISIS into the country.

So just how effective was the US-led invasion? What have they achieve in Iraq that will last in our lifetime?

Tell me, outhouse. Did Saddam's trial and execution achieve anything long term?

It made a lot of Shiites and Kurds happy that this butcher is gone. But did it in any way stablise Iraq?

The new US air-strike upon ISIS will only have minimal effect without ground supports. And clearly diplomacy won't work, because ISIS is not interested in what the US have to say. And judging by the diplomacy of the US to the Sunni and Shiites, that also haven't work.

What do you think am I saying?

I am saying that Iraq was broken, and cannot be fixed by the Americans, and they - the Iraqis - can't fix themselves, because there are too much bad blood. Getting rid of ISIS won't solve Iraq's internal political or social problems. A lot of people may get to keep their head, should every ISIS be killed, but it won't solve Iraq's incurable disease.

Iraq is simply unfixed-able.

 

[gnostic]

Washington spawned ISIS. Now the Shock and Awe is seen from the other side, the CIA call it blow back. Don't pretend that ISIS is any more barbaric than western invaders and occupiers. I saw the pictures and the footage of the tortures and the killings by western occupiers. There was no reason to invade Iraq in the first place, nothing was accomplished and now we have this, it's horrific, but we can't pretend to be any better than the worst of them.

Man, steeltoes. You don't know how to read, do you?

Didn't I state the US shouldn't have entered in Iraq and achieve little, in posts 253 & 280?

I have never supposed US-led invasion, PERIOD. Do you understand that?

But I also think ISIS is a Sunni terrorist group.

What I find strange is that YOU were defending ISIS in your other posts, and now you are saying that they are American-run.

Which is it?

Make up your mind.

I think you personally don't know or just making things up as you go. That's the impression I am getting.

 

[steeltoes]

Man, steeltoes. You don't know how to read, do you?

Didn't I state the US shouldn't have entered in Iraq and achieve little, in posts 253 & 280?

I have never supposed US-led invasion, PERIOD. Do you understand that?

But I also think ISIS is a Sunni terrorist group.

What I find strange is that YOU were defending ISIS in your other posts, and now you are saying that they are American-run.

Which is it?

Make up your mind.

I think you personally don't know or just making things up as you go. That's the impression I am getting.

I have never defended ISIS and I never said that they are American-run, that is totally absurd.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I did read about 30% of those in IS are ideologues. So about 30% of them are probably those who do need to be removed from society, but what about the other 70%? How do we prevent them, and future generations, from taking up arms and resorting to such violent measures? Is there a way to even get this 70% to put their guns down and go back home?

 

[icehorse]

Many factors create ISIS-esque groups. In no particular order:

- Tribal culture
- Western interventions
- Unbalanced natural resources (that allow for greed)
- An intolerant, divisive religion

Without considering all of these (and undoubtedly some that I missed), we won't have a lasting solution.

 

[outhouse]

Is there a way to even get this 70% to put their guns down and go back home?

Not sure you can.

Much of this could be due to over population and lack of resources.

If there was plenty for the people, they would not fight.

 

[Looncall]

Not sure you can.

Much of this could be due to over population and lack of resources.

If there was plenty for the people, they would not fight.

I gather that at least some of the jihadis from western countries were well off, so not all of those barbarians have an excuse.

However, as resources become scarcer as climate deteriorates, I expect we will continue to see fanatics taking advantage of people's misery.

 

[outhouse]

I gather that at least some of the jihadis from western countries were well off, so not all of those barbarians have an excuse.

However, as resources become scarcer as climate deteriorates, I expect we will continue to see fanatics taking advantage of people's misery.

No they have no excuse.

But if peoples bellies were well fed, there would be no fight for extremist to join.


People in the middle east have been fighting since recorded history, religion has only added to the foundational underpinnings.

 

[Looncall]

No they have no excuse.

But if peoples bellies were well fed, there would be no fight for extremist to join.


People in the middle east have been fighting since recorded history, religion has only added to the foundational underpinnings.

Religion has also prevented those societies from progressing, even if only by promoting idiotic factional conflict.

 

[outhouse]

Religion has also prevented those societies from progressing, even if only by promoting idiotic factional conflict.

Oh! definitely not innocent


The problems are just multi faceted

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No they have no excuse.

But if peoples bellies were well fed, there would be no fight for extremist to join.


People in the middle east have been fighting since recorded history, religion has only added to the foundational underpinnings.

What of the ones who are wealthy? Osama Bin Laden was a very wealthy jihadist, and I doubt he went hungry that many times. Though economic disparity can and does play a role in getting people to go to these measures, it's only a part of the whole and it does not apply equally to all. I have no doubts some of those within the ranks of IS had absolutely nothing before they joined, but some of them seem to come from backgrounds that wouldn't have them starving.

 

[outhouse]

What of the ones who are wealthy? Osama Bin Laden was a very wealthy jihadist, and I doubt he went hungry that many times. Though economic disparity can and does play a role in getting people to go to these measures, it's only a part of the whole and it does not apply equally to all. I have no doubts some of those within the ranks of IS had absolutely nothing before they joined, but some of them seem to come from backgrounds that wouldn't have them starving.

As a rule, how many people would follow nut jobs extremist if they were well fed?

Most of his followers fighters were dirt poor with little to nothing to their names.


Im getting to the core of issues. Politics, religions and the power hungry will still have roots.

But by a well fed community or nation, the call to arms factually diminishes.


Lets look at American Indians for this. Clovis and Folsom Did not overpopulate their resources, did not wage war against each other. We can see evidence from 11,000 years ago that they worked together and pulled resources to hunt bison

 

[outhouse]

A hungry man with a hungry family is hard to stop fighting in any culture.

 

[icehorse]

What of the ones who are wealthy? Osama Bin Laden was a very wealthy jihadist, and I doubt he went hungry that many times. Though economic disparity can and does play a role in getting people to go to these measures, it's only a part of the whole and it does not apply equally to all. I have no doubts some of those within the ranks of IS had absolutely nothing before they joined, but some of them seem to come from backgrounds that wouldn't have them starving.

So then what motivated OBL?