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Is Islam nothing but an international religious mafia?

Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
I find the rules of the religion impossible to make sense:
1. Death Penalty for blasphemy and apostasy.
2. Playing victim after committing a crime
3. Blurring the lines between defense and violence, good and bad?
4. Being both a religion and a state.

Lots of Muslims are wonderful people just like people of many other religions are humanitarian despite the religious teachings themselves. But the core of their beliefs is extraordinarily medieval and completely unamenable to reforms. Anyone else who is wondering the same?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is Islam as is (presented by followers).
There is Islam as ought to be (disagreed about by followers).

I hope that helps you.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I find the rules of the religion impossible to make sense:
1. Death Penalty for blasphemy and apostasy.
2. Playing victim after committing a crime
3. Blurring the lines between defense and violence, good and bad?
4. Being both a religion and a state.

Lots of Muslims are wonderful people just like people of many other religions are humanitarian despite the religious teachings themselves. But the core of their beliefs is extraordinarily medieval and completely unamenable to reforms. Anyone else who is wondering the same?
Islam do also have the inward path (esoteric teaching) called sufism but even in sufism some chose to do those things you describe, others chose a pasifistic path where harming others isn't a way of life.
Where unconditional love is the main focus.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I find the rules of the religion impossible to make sense:
1. Death Penalty for blasphemy and apostasy.
2. Playing victim after committing a crime
3. Blurring the lines between defense and violence, good and bad?
4. Being both a religion and a state.

Lots of Muslims are wonderful people just like people of many other religions are humanitarian despite the religious teachings themselves. But the core of their beliefs is extraordinarily medieval and completely unamenable to reforms. Anyone else who is wondering the same?
It's going through a bad patch, due to the rise of political islam, which is a late c.20th phenomenon. Oil money, the speed of international communication and global migration do not help.

I am far from convinced that the religion is not amenable to reforms. There are many varieties of islam. The ones we hear about are the noisy ones, just as the Christians many of us hear about are mostly the noisy Bible Belt fundies in the USA, who are primitive and unrepresentative of the religion in general. But it is a bad patch for Islam, there's no getting away from it.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If Iran and Hezbollah pacified, Obama's plan with Al-Nusra (who almost all turned to ISIS) would be that ISIS rules Iraq and Syria and even on the door steps of Iran maybe who knows.

It was US who created ISIS, funded them, gave them weapons, and made them to monstrous threat they became, and it was us who defeated them, and all praise to God.

My view, believers never drop your weapons, and if Sistani tells you to, curse him in your prayers and don't do it nor obey in this regards a successor to Sistani.
 
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Altfish

Veteran Member
There is Islam as is (presented by followers).
There is Islam as ought to be (disagreed about by followers).

I hope that helps you.
I think one problem with the perception of Islam is that there are no recognised leaders, like The Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury, who can 'proclaim' what is the correct way of Islam.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think one problem with the perception of Islam is that there are no recognised leaders, like The Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury, who can 'proclaim' what is the correct way of Islam.

This is true, but that is why I say I'm a seeker, I don't claim to represent the true religion nor claim to know it.

Till the Mahdi returns, we will have this problem.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I find the rules of the religion impossible to make sense:
1. Death Penalty for blasphemy and apostasy.
2. Playing victim after committing a crime
3. Blurring the lines between defense and violence, good and bad?
4. Being both a religion and a state.

Lots of Muslims are wonderful people just like people of many other religions are humanitarian despite the religious teachings themselves. But the core of their beliefs is extraordinarily medieval and completely unamenable to reforms. Anyone else who is wondering the same?

I don't consider Islam significantly different from Christianity on paper.

Christians and Muslims each revere a Semitic desert god, Yahweh and Allah, that is an angry, vengeful, jealous, judgmental, sadistic, prudish, strongman that requires worship and submission.

Believers of both attend temples (Mosques or churches) and obey paternalistic, misogynisitic clergy.

Both religions embrace magical thinking, mythology, dogma, the supernatural, and ritual.

Each feature demons angels, prayer, an afterlife, a judgment, and a system of reward and punishment after death.

Each has its now centuries old holy book of internal contradictions, failed prophecies, and errors of history and science. I'm not as sure about the Qur'an, but it likely also contain vengeance, hatred, tribalism, violence, and failed morals that endorse slavery, rape, infanticide, and incest.

They each think they have the right to determine who should be allowed to diddle whom how, who should be able to marry whom, and what women must do regarding their bodies.

Both are patriarchal, authoritarian, misogynistic, sexually repressive, anhedonisitic, atheophobic, homophobic, antiscientiific, use psychological terrorism on their children, have violent histories featuring torture, genocide and terrorism, and demand obedience and submission.

Each consider faith a virtue and reason a problem.

Each has a history of opposing human rights and science.

Each advocates theocracy over democracy.

With all of these similarities - and that is a lot of parallels, most not found elsewhere - why should these two appear so differently in the regions where they predominate? The differences are in the rendering, which reflects the history and the culture of the areas in which each has flourished over the last few centuries. The Christian West has been under the influence of the secular democracies that emerged from the rise of Enlightenment values and secular humanism and has been dramatically influenced by its rational ethics. Hence, Christians no longer execute people for homosexuality, adultery, witchcraft, fornication, apostasy, impiety, blasphemy, and other crimes against Yahweh, whereas Muslims are still free to kill such people. They have largely accepted democracy, human rights, individual freedom, and secular government, all of which lags behind in the Middle East.

If you extract Christianity and Islam from their surrounding cultures, they appear very similar, as outlined above. If you traded the ideologies out, and put Christianity in Saudi Arabia and Islam in America, the results would be the same: Christian Arabs still relatively sheltered from the influences of secular humanism would still be cutting off hands and heads, pushing homosexuals off of Towers, doing honor killings, genital mutilation, suicide bombings, and flying buildings into airplanes.

And Americans would still be going door to door asking if you know Mohammed rather than Jesus. America would still be a secular state with a Muslim majority forced to tolerate "infidels" thanks to humanist values, and Saudi Arabia and Iran would still be a brutal, intolerant theocracies, but Christian ones instead. You might be blown up for drawing a picture of Jesus, or have a fatwa placed on you for speaking ill of St. Paul.

If you consider Christianity less brutal, less medieval than Islam, thank those that led us from the Age of Faith into the Age of Reason - the scientists and philosophers of the Enlightenment, and those who implemented their ideas.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I think one problem with the perception of Islam is that there are no recognised leaders, like The Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury, who can 'proclaim' what is the correct way of Islam.
I strongly agree you are onto something there. The lack of apolitical religious leaders (i.e. excluding people like the Serious Beards in Iran) does seem to be one of the difficulties.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Lots of Muslims are wonderful people just like people of many other religions are humanitarian despite the religious teachings themselves. But the core of their beliefs is extraordinarily medieval and completely unamenable to reforms. Anyone else who is wondering the same?
As opposed to the Catholic Church, the Church of England and its associates, the Church of Latter Day Saints, or the numerous American megachurches seeking to make inroads in South America, Africa and Europe via extensive missionary work and political lobbying?

And speaking of being extraordinarily medieval, have we forgotten how during British colonial rule, Hindus were literally rioting over a law that banned them from burning women at the stake?
 
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Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
As opposed to the Catholic Church, the Church of England and its associates, the Church of Latter-Day Saints, or the numerous American megachurches seeking to make inroads in South America, Africa and Europe via extensive missionary work and political lobbying?

And speaking of being extraordinarily medieval, have we forgotten how during British colonial rule, Hindus were literally rioting over a law that banned them from burning women at the stake?
Did u mean banning Sati? Sati was never a part of mainstream Hindu religion as much as work/caste-related distinctions were. Christianity and Hinduism have been reformed to a large part but any criticism of Islam or their prophet can have deadly consequences even to this day. Current theocracies are mostly Islamic.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Did u mean banning Sati? Sati was never a part of mainstream Hindu religion.
It was widespread in Bengal province, the initial stronghold of British power in India, which is perhaps why the British reacted so strongly to it to begin with - and probably also because the practice was so visible - otherwise, I doubt they cared much about the widespread traditional violence against women in India for a long time. Ironically enough, the Indian government passed a law in 1987 to ban the practice again, because despite multiple laws against it people still wouldn't let up.

Theocracies are not common to Islam either, by the way - the only explicitly theocratic government is the Islamic Republic of Iran.
 
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EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I find the rules of the religion impossible to make sense:
1. Death Penalty for blasphemy and apostasy.
2. Playing victim after committing a crime
3. Blurring the lines between defense and violence, good and bad?
4. Being both a religion and a state.

Lots of Muslims are wonderful people just like people of many other religions are humanitarian despite the religious teachings themselves. But the core of their beliefs is extraordinarily medieval and completely unamenable to reforms. Anyone else who is wondering the same?
The same could be said of numerous faiths that mandate certain rules/laws which are meant to impede other faiths. Not just Islam.
 

Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
It was widespread in Bengal province, the initial stronghold of British power in India, which is perhaps why the British reacted so strongly to it to begin with - and probably also because the practice was so visible - otherwise, I doubt they cared much about the widespread traditional violence against women in India for a long time. Ironically enough, the Indian government passed a law in 1987 to ban the practice again, because despite multiple laws against it people still wouldn't let up.

Theocracies are not widespread in Islam either, by the way - the only explicitly theocratic government is the Islamic Republic of Iran.

How about Saudi Arabia,Pakistan and Afghanistan?

No one is claiming here Hinduism/Christianity is the most wonderful religion(s) or perfect religion. This acceptance has allowed criticism of their religion and subsequent reforms. But Islam is not the same, no one can criticize it publicly without getting killed and in lots of Islamic countries have laws that prevent conversion out of Islam.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
How about Saudi Arabia,Pakistan and Afghanistan?
Saudi Arabia et al are vile and oppressive regimes, but they are traditional monarchies whose relationship to organized religion is otherwise not at all different from the King of Spain's or the Grand Duke of Luxembourg's (or, to use more accurate analogy, they resemble the old Czars of Russia, minus Russia's widespread socialist opposition)

Pakistan is officially a federal parliamentary republic much like India, though their identity is apparently much more strongly tied up with religion than India's used to be until the BJP swept into power utilizing its particular brand of Hindu nationalism.

Afghanistan is a failed state currently ruled by the victorious faction of a 40-years long civil war.

No one is claiming here Hinduism/Christianity is the most wonderful religion(s) or perfect religion. This acceptance has allowed criticism of their religion and subsequent reforms. But Islam is not the same, no one can criticize it publicly without getting killed and in lots of Islamic countries have laws that prevent conversion out of Islam.
I can't speak of Hinduism because I honestly don't know a great many Hindus to begin with, but you seem to be under the misconception that Christians follow the rules of secular society out of deliberate choice and conviction, but nothing could be further from the truth. We only need to look to the US to see how much Christian fundamentalists chafe under a secular order, and will use any semblance of power to forcibly re-instate what they see as god-given, intrinsically correct values.

And the reason why we live in a secular society to begin with, is that Christian sects just couldn't stop slaughtering one another in order to determine whom their God loved more. Secularism was a compromise solution when it became obvious that more theocratically minded governments couldn't be maintained.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Is Islam nothing but an international religious mafia?
Why single out Islam?
Islam is an easy target these days. Attacking Islam is worth brownie points among Christian fundamentalists, radical atheists, secular liberals, orthodox jews, and Hindu nationalists, which if you think for a moment is a remarkably broad appeal, arguably matched only by transphobia in how many people it can bring together.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I find the rules of the religion impossible to make sense:
1. Death Penalty for blasphemy and apostasy.
2. Playing victim after committing a crime
3. Blurring the lines between defense and violence, good and bad?
4. Being both a religion and a state.

Lots of Muslims are wonderful people just like people of many other religions are humanitarian despite the religious teachings themselves. But the core of their beliefs is extraordinarily medieval and completely unamenable to reforms. Anyone else who is wondering the same?
I think so. The taliban among others have proven its the case. Killing, amputation, burning people alive in cages, raising bodies high up on cranes to subjugate others into compliance.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Islam is an easy target these days. Attacking Islam is worth brownie points among Christian fundamentalists, radical atheists, secular liberals, orthodox jews, and Hindu nationalists, which if you think for a moment is a remarkably broad appeal, arguably matched only by transphobia in how many people it can bring together.
True, sometimes I think if it wasn't for "our" oil on their land we wouldn't be having these conflicts.
 
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