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Is Islamic faith reasonable.

1robin

Christian/Baptist
How it is reasonable to believe in a religion began by a man who fought 68 battles, at least some offensive in nature, and committed acts some scholars suggest were atrocities?

How is it reasonable to believe in a religious book written by God that has whole sections of gnostic gospels known to be uninspired and incorrect circulating in Arabia at this time copied as scripture? Or to believe in the Quran when compared to the bible, a source hundreds of years closer to the event of the crucifixion with actual witnesses, details are illogically incorrect?

How is it reasonable to believe a religion founded on the word of one man?
A man who said he thought he was either possessed or going insane after his cave visit with an angel. The more witnesses the better.

How is it reasonable to believe in a religion that claims Allah fights with them when they are defeated over and over again when attacking a country (Israel) that is 1% their total combined size and they outnumber 50 to 1 at least?

I apologize for the directness of the questions, as no insult is intended. I have asked Muslims to address these issues many times but I never gotten a reasonable answer and very few unreasonable ones.

Thanks in advance for your comments.
God Bless,
Selah

SINCE NOONE CAN BELIEVE I WAS ASKING FOR ONLY ANSWERS. I WILL ASSUME IT IS MY FAULT AND CHANGE THE QUESTION SOMEWHAT

CAN ANY MUSLIM EXPLAIN THE ABOVE POINTS WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THEIR FAITH?
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
How it is reasonable to believe in a religion began by a man who fought 68 battles, at least some offensive in nature, and committed acts some scholars suggest were atrocities?

This from a person who believes in a pseudepigraphic story claiming ...
Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"
"My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many."
And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
On the other hand, you know doubt also believe that the same messiah said the words reported in Matthew 7:1-5. :)
 

839311

Well-Known Member
How it is reasonable to believe in a religion began by a man who fought 68 battles, at least some offensive in nature, and committed acts some scholars suggest were atrocities?

Well, if you don't believe and declare yourself an apostate the consequences will almost certainly be negative. You might be shunned, rejected by your family, and depending on where you are, theres a good chance you will be killed, which depends on how strictly Sharia law is followed. Its much different than in the west, where people have the freedom and security to believe in whatever religion suits them.

In some Islamic countries, if you want to live, you believe, or at least pretend to. Not too much choice in the matter. Once Islamic countries achieve the level of freedom the west enjoys then I believe we will see those countries becoming much more diverse in their beliefs and accepting of others.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Well, if you don't believe and declare yourself an apostate the consequences will almost certainly be negative. You might be shunned, rejected by your family, and depending on where you are, theres a good chance you will be killed, which depends on how strictly Sharia law is followed. Its much different than in the west, where people have the freedom and security to believe in whatever religion suits them.

In some Islamic countries, if you want to live, you believe, or at least pretend to. Not too much choice in the matter. Once Islamic countries achieve the level of freedom the west enjoys then I believe we will see those countries becoming much more diverse in their beliefs and accepting of others.

This is exactly correct. Any religion which compels adherence by threat is deficient of merit. This explains why people confess Islam but not why they would actually believe.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Have you read the OT?

That might be a counterclaim concerning the violence but not the other points. If this was the only problem it might be more reasonable to have faith in Islam, but coupled with the many others it seems illogical in my opinion.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
It is reasonable when one actually takes the time to learn about said religions. I could say many of the same things, and much worse about Christianity. However, spreading ignorance and intolerance is hardly justifiable.

So instead, I will just ask you one question. How is it reasonable to belittle others based on your lack of knowledge?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
This from a person who believes in a pseudepigraphic story claiming ...
What? can you elaborate. It is quite unexpected to find a believer in Judaism defending or trying to defend Islam. Could you explain your motivation.
On the other hand, you know doubt also believe that the same messiah said the words reported in Matthew 7:1-5. :)
I assume you are implying a contradiction. If Jesus (being God) knew the evil nature of these demons then there is no judgement. It is a statement of fact. Why are you placeing the same restrictions on God that he placed on us. Given the infinate difference in our nature and intellect v/s God's this is silly. This thread however is for discussing the reasonability of Islam not whatever this was. But thanks for your response anyway.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
That might be a counterclaim concerning the violence but not the other points. If this was the only problem it might be more reasonable to have faith in Islam, but coupled with the many others it seems illogical in my opinion.
The counterclaim is that if you were to read and study both the OT and NT in their entirety, you would find equally unreasonable and far flung beliefs.

You stand outside Islam and see what others see in Christianity, of Judaism, or many religious beliefs.
While you find your beliefs "reasonable", to others outside of your faith it as equally unreasonable as you find Islam.

One of my favorite quotes attributed to Jesus is;

For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
It is reasonable when one actually takes the time to learn about said religions. I could say many of the same things, and much worse about Christianity. However, spreading ignorance and intolerance is hardly justifiable.

So instead, I will just ask you one question. How is it reasonable to belittle others based on your lack of knowledge?
I have studied Islam enough to to know there is a certain amount of truth in my points. This is an inquiry after knowledge not a personal attack. My questions were sincere and reasonable. You would be doing a greater service to your faith by actually giving a reasonable response instead of deflecting the issue to an assertian about Christianity and me. This tactic discredits your ability to defend or explain my points as is usually the case. Why don't you try and come up with a counter point to my points and discuss it I assure you I have no intention to belittle anyone intentionaly.

Selah
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Unerring faith in anything isn't reasonable without a solution to the problem of induction. And nobody has one, AFAIK.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
The counterclaim is that if you were to read and study both the OT and NT in their entirety, you would find equally unreasonable and far flung beliefs.

You stand outside Islam and see what others see in Christianity, of Judaism, or many religious beliefs.
While you find your beliefs "reasonable", to others outside of your faith it as equally unreasonable as you find Islam.

One of my favorite quotes attributed to Jesus is;

For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Another reply that doesn't defend the points I made but rather deflects the discussion to a different religion. I am interested in what muslims think about these issues not what anyone believes about issues with the bible. BTW I am not concedeing your point I am not interested. You make a thread and I will be happy to discuss it with you.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Is any faith reasonable? Jewish, Christian, Islamic, etc.? I would say it depends on who you ask. Some people find it reasonable, some don't. I happen to be a Muslim and therefore - as it would be obvious - think it is reasonable enough for me. :)
 

arthra

Baha'i
1robin

How it is reasonable to believe in a religion began by a man who fought 68 battles, at least some offensive in nature, and committed acts some scholars suggest were atrocities?

My comment:

I've seen your posts before on this forum.. The situation of early Islam was one of warfare brought on by Meccan pagans on Muslims.

robin:

How is it reasonable to believe in a religious book written by God that has whole sections of gnostic gospels known to be uninspired and incorrect circulating in Arabia at this time copied as scripture?

My comment:

There are similarities to some Christian legends like the sleepers of Ephesus and the Infancy Gospel of Thomas neither of which is Gnostic in origin... They were not "copied as scripture" as they have an entirely different form in the Quran.

robin:

Or to believe in the Quran when compared to the bible, a source hundreds of years closer to the event of the crucifixion with actual witnesses, details are illogically incorrect?

My comment:

You may be referring to the Quranic verses about the crucifixion that Jesus was not killed.. HIs Spirit however was taken up to God..His Spirit was not crucified.

robin:

How is it reasonable to believe a religion founded on the word of one man?
A man who said he thought he was either possessed or going insane after his cave visit with an angel. The more witnesses the better.

My comment:

How is it as reasonable to accept that Jesus in the wilderness after His baptism had conversations with Satan? "The more witneses the better"?

robin:

How is it reasonable to believe in a religion that claims Allah fights with them when they are defeated over and over again when attacking a country (Israel) that is 1% their total combined size and they outnumber 50 to 1 at least?

Comment:

Israel was established in 1948 through the United Nations ...political issues. Wars and squabbles over the issue of state of Palestine. Does God have to be on one side or another? Or is peace and reconciliation more in accord with the Holy Land than war?


robin:

I apologize for the directness of the questions, as no insult is intended. I have asked Muslims to address these issues many times but I never gotten a reasonable answer and very few unreasonable ones.


Comment:

Not a Muslim here...but your approach seems biased and one sided for the most part.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Is any faith reasonable? Jewish, Christian, Islamic, etc.? I would say it depends on who you ask. Some people find it reasonable, some don't. I happen to be a Muslim and therefore - as it would be obvious - think it is reasonable enough for me. :)
I understand and agree to a great extent I was more interested in how you deal with my points I listed. Is there a way that my ponints are accounted for by Muslims. Are you saying that your faith in general is enough to dismiss the individual points I listed. While unsatasfying that is an understandable answer.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I detest bigotry and wilfull ignorance.
Since I made no claim then where is the ignorance. It is a fact that Islam and Israel have had an adversarial history many times, which is fine. I just found it unexpected, and since this is my opinion your ingnorance claim is misapplied.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
No, you're interested in condemning Islam.
Since you have no idea what I am thinking, it is you who are displaying ignorance as I do know what I am thinking and it was simply to get an answer to my questions. I didn't have any intention to reply to any answeres except for clarification.
 
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