Is it important to know, when humans started believing in God?

[siti]

These times might be up for debate but you get the drift.

Isn't it a coincidence that humans only started to believe in 'God' when we our brains reached a certain size for intelligence and consciousness, something like 50,000 years a go.

Humans had been around for a long, long time before that.

So why didn't we believe in God then?

Did humans make God up themselves?

I'm not sure its even the right question at all to be honest...I am very skeptical of any kind of radical emergence that could only be regarded as miraculous - whether you're a devout believer or a confirmed atheist...

My question would be not when, but how and from what could such a concept have emerged in the first place? Presumably some particularly creative and imaginative paleolithic nomad did not suddenly wake up one day and decide to invent a deity or deities of some kind.

Some have postulated that the concepts of deity we now have evolved from animism via polytheism...etc. to what we have now...but where did animism (or whatever the real precursor of the notion of deity might have been) come from?

I don't for a minute accept that the intuition that "unseen agencies" are at work in the world requires either language or a particularly well-developed intellect...or even a "large brain"...though I do suspect that brain structure and connectivity between different regions of the brain might be pre-requisite - as, it seems, they are for self-recognition.

After reading around the subject of animal "spirituality" several years ago, and my own experiences of caring for various kinds of animals, I am convinced that some animals do experience similar kinds of "altered consciousness" that are often associated with religious or spiritual experiences in humans (not actually that surprising because the 'feelings' are mediated by our mammalian hormonal systems). There's little doubt in my mind that the real origins of our concepts of deity go back deep into our pre-human ancestry, long pre-dating any human notions of animism or deity and have their roots in the perfectly natural relationship between an animal and its environment. And if you really want to, you can interpret that as God (or god, or gods...whatever) being perfectly real and revealing itself to its creatures as they evolve the ability to interpret those 'revelations'...

...and then...we started telling stories - and eventually writing them - to one another about what we have experienced. As long as we keep the stories in context and don't start killing one another over them, I don't see any problem with any of that...

but...

 

[siti]

So If I walk up to some farmer tilling his field in 1500 BC in Tyre .. and ask him to tell me his creation story

He'd probably tell you to sling your hook and stop wasting his bloody time... just like most people outside of RF (and a fair proportion in RF) would today...

It matters not what you think .. what I think .. what science says because this is about what this fellow believed. .. and that is what he believed ---and what's more .. what everybody else believed . and that they had had this believe for 3000 years..

How on God's green earth (or any other color of planet for that matter) could you possibly presume to know what everybody believed 3500 years ago? You don't even know what I believe now. Jeez - even I don't know what I believe now most days.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am.

Says the man with a chimp avatar. LOL okay.

 

[Sargonski]

He'd probably tell you to sling your hook and stop wasting his bloody time... just like most people outside of RF (and a fair proportion in RF) would today...

How on God's green earth (or any other color of planet for that matter) could you possibly presume to know what everybody believed 3500 years ago? You don't even know what I believe now. Jeez - even I don't know what I believe now most days.

I have not presumed to know anything .. they wrote it down .. a link with one of the most famous of these stories the "Atra Hasis" text for your reading pleasure was provided.

and once again .. this is not about what you believe .. so you need not know that - this is about what that fellow 1500 BC believed .. and we know what that was ..

 

[Sargonski]

****ing what nonsense is this?

LMFAO

Maybe nonsense to you ... and giggle like gossiping schoolgirls if you like .. but that is what these gentle folk 3500 years ago believed

 

[The Hammer]

Maybe nonsense to you ... and giggle like gossiping schoolgirls if you like .. but that is what these gentle folk 3500 years ago believed

Glad to know you're 3500 years old/can read minds.

 

[Sargonski]

Glad to know you're 3500 years old/can read minds.

Don't need to read minds .. are you having trouble understanding the concept of writing one's thoughts down friend ? Well they didn't

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Humans have always believed in God .. least since the time they could ask themselves "where did I come from" and expecially in the case of the first hybrids .. The sky people making worker drones by genetic mixing of themselves with some early proto hominid creature that they found here... Those Humans have always looked upon the sky people - their creator -- as Gods .. so .. for as long as that species has existed pretty much ..

This is just patently false. For most of teh 200,000 years that homo sapiens sapiens have been around, we have been hunter gatherers, and our religion was animism, the belief that all of nature is animated by spirit or manna. With the building of cities, animism morphed into classic polytheistic idolatry, and that polytheism gradually morphed into monotheism. The earliest recorded instance of monotheism was that of Pharaoh Akhenaton of Egypt in the 14th century BCE, who believed that the sun was the only god.

There were no "sky people" who interbred with humans. This is sheer myth without any basis in history whatsoever.

I am not opposed to the reading of religious texts. I do plenty of that myself. But dude, you need to read the works of actual historians before you make proclamations of what humans were like thousands of years ago.

 

[Sargonski]

This is just patently false. For most of teh 200,000 years that homo sapiens sapiens have been around, we have been hunter gatherers, and our religion was animism, the belief that all of nature is animated by spirit or manna. With the building of cities, animism morphed into classic polytheistic idolatry, and that polytheism gradually morphed into monotheism. The earliest recorded instance of monotheism was that of Pharaoh Akhenaton of Egypt in the 14th century BCE, who believed that the sun was the only god.

There were no "sky people" who interbred with humans. This is sheer myth without any basis in history whatsoever.

I am not opposed to the reading of religious texts. I do plenty of that myself. But dude, you need to read the works of actual historians before you make proclamations of what humans were like thousands of years ago.

I am not talking 200,000 years ago .. and who said anything about monotheism ? Your lack of belief in the sky people has absolutely no bearing on what people living in 1500 BC believed .. or what their creation story was. Do you understand this ?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is it important to know, when humans started believing in God?​

Isn't it a coincidence that humans only started to believe in 'God' when we our brains reached a certain size for intelligence and consciousness, something like 50,000 years a go.
So why didn't we believe in God then?
Did humans make God up themselves?

No, it hardly matters. But to speculate is always fun.

Don't know what chimps think about it. There were pre-humans with brain size larger than us.
Belief in God is not a sign of intelligence.
Sure, they did. That is why different Gods and Goddesses for different people.

 

[The Hammer]

Don't need to read minds .. are you having trouble understanding the concept of writing one's thoughts down friend ? Well they didn't

*Sigh* Okie dokie

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am not talking 200,000 years ago .. and who said anything about monotheism ? Your lack of belief in the sky people has absolutely no bearing on what people living in 1500 BC believed .. or what their creation story was. Do you understand this ?

In a later post, you mentioned 3500 years ago. It makes no difference. You made the flagrantly false comment that humans had always believed in God (aka monotheism, since you are using the singular rather than a plural). It is this error that got under my skin. You are uneducated in human history.

My understanding of the basic religions and myths of 3500 years ago is based on archeological finds, not religious texts. For example, we know that in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, the Israelites were polytheists, not monotheists. Even Jews that worshiped only YHWH were henotheists, not monotheists, meaning that they did not believe in one God (singular) but gods (plural). Jews did not give up idolatry and fully embrace monotheism until the Babylonian Captivity in the sixth century BCE.

As for the sky people, you claimed that they interbred with humans, when in fact they never existed at all except as characters in a mythological story, and even in that story, they were not called "sky people" but bnei haElohim, sons of the powerful ones. In Jewish understanding, these bnei haElohim were simply human beings, the children of leaders and heroes and stuff, who went on to become moral giants. Nothing "sky" about them.

I suspect you are into the whole idea of aliens from other planets visiting earth??? I suspect there is indeed other life out there in the universe, because mathematically that is the most probable thing. But there is zero evidence that any extra terrestrials have EVER visited earth. And if they do some day actually make it here, they will be unable to interbreed with humans for the same reason that a fish and bird cannot interbreed.

 

[Madsaac]

1) yes 2) Yes -- this is the creation story of --- and this is the part that is not sinking in yet ---- EVERYONE in the entire civilized known world -- prior to ~ 500 BC.

OK ? .. So If I walk up to some farmer tilling his field in 1500 BC in Tyre .. and ask him to tell me his creation story .... That is what he tells me .. sky people came down (Gods) -- needed Gold for their planet -- created worker drone and so on... except the story in much greater detail .. right - wrong - or otherwise.

It matters not what you think .. what I think .. what science says because this is about what this fellow believed. .. and that is what he believed ---and what's more .. what everybody else believed . and that they had had this believe for 3000 years..

and whats more .. don't have to listen to this farmer .. don't have to listen to me .. because you can read it for yourself in the "Atra Hasis" story.. that we have in different variations .. and the Enuma Elish .. Some of the first written poetry that we are aware of.

The Story of Atrahasis

faculty.gvsu.edu

and yes ... if true that means that you are the offspring ofd artificially created (not animal human) but, Alien Human hybrid. more like Hominid - Annunaki hybrid. .. or Earthling-God if that tickles your fancy.

If of course you believe these stories .. but that is not really the point you should be grappling with.

THE POINT - is where these folks got these stories to begin with .. as they say there is normally some grains of truth in myth.

and of course we know what "Ancient Alien Theorists would suggest" .. but never mind them .. what do you suggest ?

Yeah cool, whatever gets you going, I don't believe in this but as long as it helps you do good by the world

 

[Madsaac]

I'm not sure its even the right question at all to be honest...I am very skeptical of any kind of radical emergence that could only be regarded as miraculous - whether you're a devout believer or a confirmed atheist...

My question would be not when, but how and from what could such a concept have emerged in the first place? Presumably some particularly creative and imaginative paleolithic nomad did not suddenly wake up one day and decide to invent a deity or deities of some kind.

Some have postulated that the concepts of deity we now have evolved from animism via polytheism...etc. to what we have now...but where did animism (or whatever the real precursor of the notion of deity might have been) come from?

I don't for a minute accept that the intuition that "unseen agencies" are at work in the world requires either language or a particularly well-developed intellect...or even a "large brain"...though I do suspect that brain structure and connectivity between different regions of the brain might be pre-requisite - as, it seems, they are for self-recognition.

After reading around the subject of animal "spirituality" several years ago, and my own experiences of caring for various kinds of animals, I am convinced that some animals do experience similar kinds of "altered consciousness" that are often associated with religious or spiritual experiences in humans (not actually that surprising because the 'feelings' are mediated by our mammalian hormonal systems). There's little doubt in my mind that the real origins of our concepts of deity go back deep into our pre-human ancestry, long pre-dating any human notions of animism or deity and have their roots in the perfectly natural relationship between an animal and its environment. And if you really want to, you can interpret that as God (or god, or gods...whatever) being perfectly real and revealing itself to its creatures as they evolve the ability to interpret those 'revelations'...

...and then...we started telling stories - and eventually writing them - to one another about what we have experienced. As long as we keep the stories in context and don't start killing one another over them, I don't see any problem with any of that...

but...

Yeah, interesting stuff. I suppose it comes down to 'levels' and 'types' of consciousness humans or animals experience but I don't think something presented itself, it was made up in the mind of a creature.

Have you read or seen the film 2001:Space Odyssey when the 'apes' found that rectangular prism (Monolith) and started to behave a little differently, maybe even anger, the Monolith could have been god?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

1) yes 2) Yes -- this is the creation story of --- and this is the part that is not sinking in yet ---- EVERYONE in the entire civilized known world -- prior to ~ 500 BC.

Ridiculous. Each culture had its own creation myth. There must have been thousands of different creation myths around the world.

You do realize that there were civilizations outside of the middle east? Indus valley had a flourishing civilization, as did China. By 3500 years ago, civilizations existed in Persia, the Danube, Egypt and Kush, the Olmecs in Mexico... So even if you limit the creation myths to those of civilizations, you still end up with many, many very different myths.

 

[Sargonski]

In a later post, you mentioned 3500 years ago. It makes no difference. You made the flagrantly false comment that humans had always believed in God (aka monotheism, since you are using the singular rather than a plural). It is this error that got under my skin. You are uneducated in human history.

My understanding of the basic religions and myths of 3500 years ago is based on archeological finds, not religious texts. For example, we know that in the Northern Kingdom of Israel, the Israelites were polytheists, not monotheists. Even Jews that worshiped only YHWH were henotheists, not monotheists, meaning that they did not believe in one God (singular) but gods (plural). Jews did not give up idolatry and fully embrace monotheism until the Babylonian Captivity in the sixth century BCE.

As for the sky people, you claimed that they interbred with humans, when in fact they never existed at all except as characters in a mythological story, and even in that story, they were not called "sky people" but bnei haElohim, sons of the powerful ones. In Jewish understanding, these bnei haElohim were simply human beings, the children of leaders and heroes and stuff, who went on to become moral giants. Nothing "sky" about them.

I suspect you are into the whole idea of aliens from other planets visiting earth??? I suspect there is indeed other life out there in the universe, because mathematically that is the most probable thing. But there is zero evidence that any extra terrestrials have EVER visited earth. And if they do some day actually make it here, they will be unable to interbreed with humans for the same reason that a fish and bird cannot interbreed.

I did not say humans had always believed in God .. nor monotheism .. and you can call me uneducated for your reading comprehension fail but strawman fallacy doesn't carry much weight here in the adult room.

You then do a classic priceless saying 1) "My understanding of the basic religions and myths of 3500 years ago is based on archeological finds, not religious texts" Followed by 2) "I suspect you are into the whole idea of aliens from other planets visiting earth???"

1) makes absolutely no sense -- how do you know about the myths 3500 years ago without reading the religious texts .. because those texts are the myths .. but regardless .. the Archaeology was what I was discussing .. the library of texts found at Rash Shamra - Ugarit and the Enuma Elish .. Nineva and other places. I specifically linked to the Atra hasis text.

and so what archaeology are you referring to if not texts written by the people who's myths we are seeking to understand ? or did you miss that part of the convo you jumped into ? .. another one of those comprehension ring a ding dings

2) so what do these texts tell us .. about the beliefs of the people that wrote these texts - Atra Hasis - Enuma Elish .. ? Thought you got your information about myths and such from the archaeology friend .. What does that archaeology tell us about the creation story of average Joe wandering around Assyria in 1500 BC .. (Hint - see your bolded comment).

What friggen archaeology are you talking about mate .. "polytheists" . Really .. tell me it ain't so .. while explaining to me what the male prostitutes in the temple of YHWH were for .. then tell me about the female one's .. and the standing stones in the temple of YHWH .. what kind of sweet smelling herbs were burned ... yeah .. now we are talking History..

So tell me the History --- tell me what our friend in 1500 BC thought .. what was their creation story .. this is standard stuff -- everyone should know .. can watch a gazillion utube video's going through these texts .. learning the old stories ..

Fire away -- stage now yours .. can't wait to hear about the creation story of our 1500 BC friends.

 

[Sargonski]

Yeah cool, whatever gets you going, I don't believe in this but as long as it helps you do good by the world

You don't believe in what friend ? - and what relevance are your beliefs about creation .. or my beliefs .. to someone living 1500BC.

If you don't believe you were a product of some proto-human hybridization with people from the sky .. you are perfectly welcome your belief .. and no need to tell me what it is .. because it is not relevant .. and I will not tell you what I believe .. because 1) clearly you already know and 2) its not relevant either .. to the question .. of what our 1500 BC friend believed

and what our 1500 BC friend believed was the hybridization story ... took the whole "Like US - In OUR Image" part of the creation story seriously .. and the part where the "Sons of God" come down and take women of earth as wives .. guess they were hottie pa tottie.

 

[Sargonski]

*Sigh* Okie dokie

Are you having an "okie dokie" moment friend ? Well have no fear .. as I am here .. should you have further questions about the creation story of our friend in 1500 BC - who believed in Aliens .. even if you don't .. Okie Dokie hokie Pokie

 

[siti]

I have not presumed to know anything .. they wrote it down .. a link with one of the most famous of these stories the "Atra Hasis" text for your reading pleasure was provided.

and once again .. this is not about what you believe .. so you need not know that - this is about what that fellow 1500 BC believed .. and we know what that was ..

"They" did not all write it down...I doubt that a farmer in 1500 BC would have written or read anything at all...let alone bothered his tired head with stories about ditch-digging deities...etc.

To suggest that everyone believed this story is as preposterous as suggesting that everyone in 18th century France was a deist because a copy of Voltaire's Candide has been found.

Most people in 18th century France would never have read - let alone understood - Voltaire's philosophy and, I'm guessing the average French farmer couldn't have cared less about the philosophical or religious ideas of some fancy-pants fop in a wig even if he knew of it...

I see no reason to assume that the fanciful musings of a bronze age Mesopotamian priest would have featured prominently on the reading lists of the Babylonian hoi polloi...we have absolutely no idea what the average Joe in the middle east 3500 years ago believed because "they" didn’t write anything down at all.

 

[Sargonski]

Ridiculous. Each culture had its own creation myth. There must have been thousands of different creation myths around the world.

You do realize that there were civilizations outside of the middle east? Indus valley had a flourishing civilization, as did China. By 3500 years ago, civilizations existed in Persia, the Danube, Egypt and Kush, the Olmecs in Mexico... So even if you limit the creation myths to those of civilizations, you still end up with many, many very different myths.

Why are you talking about the Olmecs ?? who's mythology is strikingly similar in ways but .. no one is comparing the near east beliefs to the Olmecs friend .. talking about the near east .. mesopotamia .. the Biblical World of 1500 .. from Babylon to Egypt . .round the Fertile crescent. .. not the Chinese silly .. good grief

All the Biblical peoples had the same general creation myth story Babylonians - Assyrians - Canaanites Phonecians .. midianites .. amalekites .. Israelites Edomites .. and so on

but if you want to extend it to the world .. find me one creation story that does not involve sky people / Gods The primordial chaos and Order (as opposed to good and evil) the Salt water separated from the Fresh .. the beings represented as dragons covers all the Indo European religious beliefs - Indus Valley -- tough to find a culture that did not have this motif in some form or another.

but we are talking Mesopotamia .. in 1500 BC ..