Is it possible to talk with an atheist?

[Aupmanyav]

Atheists are generally known for being extremely reticent regarding god and religion.

Good that you said generally. I delight in talking about existence/non-existence of God and religion.

.. among thinkers based purely on reason and observation they can and have come to the intelligent conclusion that there is a being which made heaven and earth.

Very funny! That is an assertion. You mean all those who differ on this are not intelligent and have faulty reasons and observation. You want to talk or you want to abuse?

I'm sorry, but if you were a TRUE vegetarian, you'd know that it's not a diet at all.

I agree. That is eating grass which I will leave to cows.

Rather, it was created according to known laws of physics and thermodynamics.

Is there any creation or it is just our perception? However, that is another topic.

 

[YmirGF]

Addressing YmirGF:

I am deeply honored that you would choose this unrepentant infidel dog to address. Thank you, in advance. Fasten your seat belt, this is going to get a little bumpy.

This is the philosophy board, so we will talk about God existing or not, purely on reason, observation. and intelligent conclusion, no bringing in any revelation whatsoever, unless the revelation is just an icing, but it is really the thinking that is grounded on reason and observation, leading thereby to intelligent conclusion.

First off, this is not a "philosophy board" in the pure sense, but that does not mean that many of us do not wax on philosophically at the drop of a hat, we do. The downside to this is that philosophy is far from being an exact science, though it is true that arguments can get excruciatingly detailed, exacting and highly anal. That said, I'm getting a sense of where you're coming from and this might prove to be quite interesting.

For example, in the Bible there is this sentence, "In the beginning God made heaven and earth."

It's in the Bible wherefore it is taken by biblical believers to be a statement of revelation, but even without the Bible, among thinkers based purely on reason and observation they can and have come to the intelligent conclusion that there is a being which made heaven and earth.

I won't argue that some intelligent people have come to some pretty dramatic conclusions based on erroneous reasoning. That much is a given.

So, let you and me start with the concept of God, what do you say?

I understand and appreciate many god concepts. I have studied these idea for a few moments over the years. That said, there is no single god concept in existence, in popular mythology, that I find particularly helpful or of much merit.

 

[Thumper]

I am a theist, and I love to talk with atheists on the issue of God exists or not.

Is it possible to talk with them, and I am not into converting them to accept the existence of God, but just to get to learn from them to think better, on the issue God exists or not.

To learn from them as to think better, am I lying?

No, I am not lying, I really want to see how they think as to themselves come to their position that there is no God; in that way I can and will get to be a better thinker, from knowing how others think who do not share my position of God existing.

It is like that I eat meat and vegetable, but there are folks who are vegetarians, so by talking with them on how to eat better, I can and will learn to adopt a better diet.


So, let me see if any atheists will talk with me.

Well I could start out being flippant and just ask "which god." From the atheistic perspective this is actually a proper starting point, but I get that is not really what you are asking. In fact, as I am an ignostic atheist, this would almost always be my first question.

The problem here is that there is usually an entirely different worldview between theism and atheism. And this is not just a minor difference, but more like a chasm. Or as Pascal noted, "We view things not only from different sides, but with different eyes; we have no wish to find them alike."

Early in my life I was very, very religious. I studied to be a minister in college. As it turns out, college is also where I began asking uncomfortable questions. I have been an atheist now for over 40 years and find it harder and harder to imagine why I ever believed.

The difference boils down I think to the concept of "belief on faith."

Most theists see this as an asset and most atheist see this as a detriment. This chasm is seldom crossed and never spanned. At least not that I've ever seen.

Atheists cannot really understand why anyone would believe something with insufficient evidence and theists cannot understand why this is even a question. (I am having trouble expressing the theistic mindset anymore so forgive me if my descriptions are imperfect.)

 

[Sanmario]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on Is it possible to talk with an atheist.

So, as I already made an opening statement, a request in fact, namely, what is your concept of God: “So, let you and me start with the concept of God, what do you say?" [See below for the post of concern.]

Here is my concept of God:

”In concept God is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.”

Please present your concept of God, or if you don’t have one, then tell me what you have for your comments on my concept of God.

No need to make comments on every line from my posts here, you feel that you should make comments on, just keep to the concept of God, that will make us concentrate instead of straying into irrelevant issues.

Addressing YmirGF:

[From Sanmario]
This is the philosophy board, so we will talk about God existing or not, purely on reason, observation. and intelligent conclusion, no bringing in any revelation whatsoever, unless the revelation is just an icing, but it is really the thinking that is grounded on reason and observation, leading thereby to intelligent conclusion.

For example, in the Bible there is this sentence, "In the beginning God made heaven and earth."

It's in the Bible wherefore it is taken by biblical believers to be a statement of revelation, but even without the Bible, among thinkers based purely on reason and observation they can and have come to the intelligent conclusion that there is a being which made heaven and earth.

So, let you and me start with the concept of God, what do you say?

YmirGF said: ↑

I am a so-called "strong" atheist. I love to talk to theists.


*absently sharpens fangs*


What would you like to discuss first?

I gather you firmly believe in a god being lording over creation.

I've been in that camp and no longer feel a need to support such presumptions.

Let's chat, shall we?

​

#11 Sanmario, Yesterday at 8:47 AM

​

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Here is my concept of God:

”In concept God is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.”

Please present your concept of God, or if you don’t have one, then tell me what you have for your comments on my concept of God.

I have no "concept of God," in the sense that there is no concept of God in which I believe. I have understood many people's concepts of God, and always find them to fail, on many levels.

On the topic of your concept of God, however, the first thing I have to point out is that you are already trying to build up a strawman by your reference to "everything with a beginning." This implies, you see, that there are two kinds of things -- those with a beginning and those without. And that is something for which you can give no evidence whatever.

Let's think about that for a moment: God -- as you apparently conclude -- "has no beginning." Now, this is difficult to understand, but when you put it beside anything that does have a beginning (and was, therefore, created and operated by your God) also exists within something that we might call "time." Well, really, without time, how can there be a beginning?

But wait! That means that from that instant of creation, God also has some part, some existence, some experience of time. How can this be? Without experience of time -- and I think this is a necessary conclusion -- God either has no awareness of it, or is aware of an absolute eternity of it. In both cases, there is no reason whatsoever to suppose that God suddenly (a "time-based" word) feels the need to change something (create a universe where there was none before). Even the word "create" suggests "change," and in fact, "change" is what time is all about!

Thus, to my way of thinking, in order to "create" the universe, it was necessary that God come into existence at the very same moment (not before) the universe. And the other way to say that is that the universe came into existence at the very same moment that God did -- and on that basis, there's no basis to decide which created the other.

 

[Sanmario]

I am not yet into proving anything yet.

I am just getting the propositions in our mind understood in concurrence between you and me, in our minds.

Okay, so you are insisting that everything has a beginning or that evertything has no beginning, meaning everything has always existed?

Or do I understand you that there are things with a beginning, and there are or at least one thing with no beginning, meaning it has always existed?

Let's get the propositions in our minds concurred on, then we will talk about how to prove the reality of the propositions in the realm of existence outside our minds.

 

[Sanmario]

Well, I guess you have no idea how to interact with me, anymore.

Try harder.

 

[Sanmario]

At this point in time, it is impossible to talk with atheists here.

Dear atheists here, what happened, to make you impossible to talk with?

It is almost like Dawkins refusing to debate Craig.

Anyway, I will just reproduce the OP for new atheist posters visiting this thread, for them to get oriented as to decide to for us talk together, okay?

Too bad, Evangelicalhumanist suddenly lost his tongue, but he does have the habit of talking in very dense manner; I suggest, dear Evangelicalhumanist, to sort out your thoughts before you commit them to writing: keep to one idea in one post and use concise, precise, and simple but clear language.

Dear new atheist posters visiting this thread, below is the OP.

________________________

Is it possible to talk with an atheist?

Sanmario Member
Joined:
May 4, 2015
Messages:
50
Ratings:
+0
Religion:
Christian
________________

I am a theist, and I love to talk with atheists on the issue of God exists or not.

Is it possible to talk with them, and I am not into converting them to accept the existence of God, but just to get to learn from them to think better, on the issue God exists or not.

To learn from them as to think better, am I lying?

No, I am not lying, I really want to see how they think as to themselves come to their position that there is no God; in that way I can and will get to be a better thinker, from knowing how others think who do not share my position of God existing.

It is like that I eat meat and vegetable, but there are folks who are vegetarians, so by talking with them on how to eat better, I can and will learn to adopt a better diet.

So, let me see if any atheists will talk with me.


#1 Sanmario, Friday at 3:58 AM​

______________________

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I am not yet into proving anything yet.

I am just getting the propositions in our mind understood in concurrence between you and me, in our minds.

Okay, so you are insisting that everything has a beginning or that evertything has no beginning, meaning everything has always existed?

Or do I understand you that there are things with a beginning, and there are or at least one thing with no beginning, meaning it has always existed?

Let's get the propositions in our minds concurred on, then we will talk about how to prove the reality of the propositions in the realm of existence outside our minds.

If you do not hit the reply button or use the @ function, such as @Sanmario then the person you're talking to will not receive a notification of reply and will have no idea you've replied to them unless they constantly check the thread (which most people don't do.)

 

[ADigitalArtist]

At this point in time, it is impossible to talk with atheists here.

Why is that?

Dear atheists here, what happened, to make you impossible to talk with?

How is it impossible?

It is almost like Dawkins refusing to debate Craig.

Are you looking to talk or debate? To many atheists, debating apologetics is tedious because we've already discussed it many times and the arguments haven't changed.

Evangelicalhumanist, to sort out your thoughts before you commit them to writing: keep to one idea in one post and use concise, precise, and simple but clear language

If a few paragraphs is too dense one won't be able to get very far on the topic.

 

[columbus]

At this point in time, it is impossible to talk with atheists here.

I just rated two posts in a row as the "Winner" because it is so difficult to understand what you mean when you don't quote things understandably. You don't communicate well enough to take on the challenge you are presenting.
Frankly, I think it would be fun to chat with you. I'm just not willing to work that hard to figure out what you mean.

I am neither an atheist nor a theist. I believe in god, but not the religions that humans are so generally fond of.
Perhaps someone would help you use the forum functions?
Tom

 

[Sanmario]

Dear Columbus, thanks, you are a theist or deist, you know god to exist, as you declare, "I believe in god...".

So, we have something in common, namely, that God or god exists.

So, let us we two talk about why atheists come to the position that god does not exist.

Is that okay with you?

Please don't go away, let you not be a butterfly, going from one spot to another, to search for what you think is flavorsome.

As you are a human, seek to stay in one spot for some time, for the purpose of getting to know better of the world we are living and acting in, and having a life in, keep up with me, as I am also I assume like you, in search of knowledge of the genuine kind, not knowledge of the fictional kind, that exists only in the mind, and serves no purpose except for the amusement of the mind engaged in fictions.

Tell me, do you get at least something at all of my thoughts in this post.

Of course, dear readers here, if Columbus does not come back here, but like a butterfly goes to another spot to look for what he thinks to be flavorsome, or even just wants to feed his fictions, then he will not return to this thread and resume with my invitation for us to talk together.

Okay, everyone here, in particular atheists, tell me something you know and you want me to know as you know it to be useful knowledge.

So, dear readers here, if you also post messages in a thread, tell me something you care to share with me, because it is good for me to know, as it is good for you to know.

Dear readers, let us sit back and witness if there be someone who has something he knows that he cares to share with me, for I long to learn from others of their useful knowledge.

So, there, this thread is about Is it possible to talk with an atheist, but at this point in time, it is about whether it is possible for colleagues here to care to talk with me, with the idea of sharing some knowledge from them which to them is useful knowledge, whether they be theist or deist or atheist, just that they are human beings, i.e. rational animals.

Else I will just continue to talk to anyone even though he does not interact with me, for I feel certain that there are people here who do read to see whether there is something at least interesting for them to read, and I hope that my writing in this thread will be interesting to them.

Sanmario said: ↑
At this point in time, it is impossible to talk with atheists here.​

I just rated two posts in a row as the "Winner" because it is so difficult to understand what you mean when you don't quote things understandably. You don't communicate well enough to take on the challenge you are presenting.
Frankly, I think it would be fun to chat with you. I'm just not willing to work that hard to figure out what you mean.

I am neither an atheist nor a theist. I believe in god, but not the religions that humans are so generally fond of.
Perhaps someone would help you use the forum functions?
Tom

 

[psychoslice]

I believe its much easier to talk to an atheist than a theist, the theist have already made their mind up that they are right without any proof, where as the atheist will discuss anything using only that which has been proven, and with the atheist no one is going to hell for not agreeing with him or her.

 

[columbus]

Dear Columbus, thanks, you are a theist or deist, you know god to exist, as you declare, "I believe in god...".

So, we have something in common, namely, that God or god exists.

So, let us we two talk about why atheists come to the position that god does not exist.

Sure, we can talk.

I need to explain something though. I am such a simple deist it's nearly indistinguishable from agnostic atheist. I nearly always describe myself as atheist, because explaining deism is too hard. Theists have generally got a batch of assertions about god that they take so much for granted they don't even recognize them when they are clearly pointed out. Such as god being a sentient, sapient entity. I see no reason to believe that about god as I understand the concept.

My beliefs are based on a very fundamental version of Kallam's argument. Simply put, "the reason there is something, rather than nothing, is god". But that doesn't tell you anything about god. Not even if he, currently, exists in any way we humans would understand existence. I don't even like using the male pronoun, he, because it implies things I see no reason to believe. But because it makes other people happy to use such literary conventions, I normally do. And I normally capitalize both the pronouns and the term god when I am referring to someone in particular's god image.

So, if we are going to discuss this you should realize that you're talking to an atheist for most purposes. I do feel confident that I can generally speak for atheists as a group. I will nevertheless say things like "Science is the best way to learn about God and morality we have at this time. Probably the afterlife too, if such exists". And I will sincerely mean them, although I am accustomed to having to explain myself a great deal. Please ask if I say something confusing.

Tom

 

[Sanmario]

Dear Columbus, please read the OP, let me reproduce it for your convenience, see Annex below.

You see, dear Columbus, you and atheists generally are what I call Christian atheists, they are ex-Christians who are disillusioned with God as described in the Old Testament, but with Christians they have a new twist, that God has chosen Christians to be in the latest times His own people, whereas in the Old Testament times, it was the Jews.

In this connection, there are also Jewish atheists who deny God as portrayed in their Bible which is basically the Old Testament in the Christian Bible, the New Testament is the what I might call raison d'être of the Christian faith or religion.

But you and I, we read the first statement of the Old Testament, "In the beginning God made heaven and earth."

So, both Christians and Jews, they have the core idea of God even without being connected with the Christian faith or the Jewish faith which we might call orthodox Judaism, namely, the core idea that God is He Who in the beginning made heaven and earth.

Now, I have this idea that folks who do care to know the origin of the universe and man and everything with a beginning, even without invoking the Christian faith or orthodox Judaism, or even Islam, in brief, socalled Revelation [sic] from God, folks that means you and me, I have this idea that we can arrive at the certainty of God existing, by reason and observation and thus intelligent conclusion, that God exists.

What do you say, shouldn’t we begin with working as to come to a concurred on concept of God, before we work out the argument for His existence, from reason and observation and thus into an intelligent conclusion of God existing?

Annex

I am a theist, and I love to talk with atheists on the issue of God exists or not.

Is it possible to talk with them, and I am not into converting them to accept the existence of God, but just to get to learn from them to think better, on the issue God exists or not.

To learn from them as to think better, am I lying?

No, I am not lying, I really want to see how they think as to themselves come to their position that there is no God; in that way I can and will get to be a better thinker, from knowing how others think who do not share my position of God existing.

It is like that I eat meat and vegetable, but there are folks who are vegetarians, so by talking with them on how to eat better, I can and will learn to adopt a better diet.


So, let me see if any atheists will talk with me.

Sanmario, Friday at 3:58 AM

 

[Sanmario]

Well, it is already in my location today; but with a lot of atheists they must still be in yesterday; so I guess they are still thinking on how to contribute to this thread.

In particular atheists in the US.

Is that correct thinking, in my first paragraph above?

Paging astronomers or astrophysicists, or whoever are the most knowledgeable on the matter of concern, "Is that correct thinking, in my first paragraph above?"

 

[1137]

I am a theist, and I love to talk with atheists on the issue of God exists or not.

Is it possible to talk with them, and I am not into converting them to accept the existence of God, but just to get to learn from them to think better, on the issue God exists or not.

To learn from them as to think better, am I lying?

No, I am not lying, I really want to see how they think as to themselves come to their position that there is no God; in that way I can and will get to be a better thinker, from knowing how others think who do not share my position of God existing.

It is like that I eat meat and vegetable, but there are folks who are vegetarians, so by talking with them on how to eat better, I can and will learn to adopt a better diet.


So, let me see if any atheists will talk with me.

I think it depends on the specific atheist. Especially online it's very common to be as unable to reason with atheists as it is with creationists, but there are definitely those who hold a classic, intelligent atheistic position. I think the key is finding an atheist who is not a dogmatic physicalist, because the latter is an utter waste of time to try and address rationally.

 

[columbus]

Dear Columbus,

Had you either quoted something I posted or put an @ in front of my screen name, I would have known about this reply.
But you didn't and I never thought about it again. I didn't think you had posted anything to me.
Your posting style and apparent lack of interest in what I post leaves me uninterested in carrying on a conversation with you. There are more engaging people on RF.
Tom

 

[Willamena]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on Is it possible to talk with an atheist.

So, as I already made an opening statement, a request in fact, namely, what is your concept of God: “So, let you and me start with the concept of God, what do you say?" [See below for the post of concern.]

Here is my concept of God:

”In concept God is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.”

​

My concept of god is of a formless, nameless, ineffable, and undefined ness-ness. It would be difficult to put into words.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Here is my concept of God:

”In concept God is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.”

Please present your concept of God, or if you don’t have one, then tell me what you have for your comments on my concept of God.

In this conceptualization of God, does consciousness have a beginning, and are the two intrinsically the same?