Is it possible to talk with an atheist?

[leibowde84]

@siti


Give four examples of evidence from your meaning of evidence.

Give four examples of components of the universe.

Alright, but after this, please answer the following question for me (as a sign of good faith):
"What evidence do you have to support your claim that God is the creator of everything with a beginning?" - your argument is merely circular until you back up this claim. You can't expect us to just accept it as fact (although, I assume you already knew that).

Examples of Evidence:
1. Fingerprints at a crime scene show that a specific person was there
2. DNA at a crime scene used to show that a specific person was there
3. Light from stars that are more than 10 million light years away is evidence that the universe is more than 10 million years old.
4. Rings in a tree are evidence to support a conclusion as to how many years old a tree is.

Examples of components of the universe:
1. Planets
2. Stars
3. Comets
4. Moons

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84
@siti

Sorry, dear Ieibowde84, I thought that I was replying to siti, because he is the one bringing up evidence and universe in his latest post here.

It's all right also that you take the initiative to tell me what is for you evidence and what is for you universe.

Now, dear readers here, let us all sit back and await with bated breath for siti to deliver his concept of evidence and also his concept of universe.

Now it is your responsibility to answer the following question:

What evidence do have to support your claim that God is the creator of everything with a beginning?

 

[Sanmario]

@leibowde84


Don't talk so much but refusing to produce your idea of a valid concept.

You forget to consult google, as you did with evidence and universe, not that I am totally concurring with your concepts of evidence and of universe, though.

Anyway, please explain why a concept is neither valid nor invalid - you say that, and no seeking refuge with uttering that it depends upon the use of the concept [that is circular talking], look up google for "valid concept."


Dear readers here, I am not killing time, but I want posters here to be able to know what they are talking about when they use words or meet words which they also use in the exchange of thoughts with others in a say internet forum.

Now, when they come to a concept that is prefixed with the adjective valid or invalid, and they are at a loss, then they should just look up dictionaries to find out what is the meaning of concept and the meaning of valid and the opposite which is invalid, wherefore there is no excuse whatsoever for leibowde84 to declare that a concept is neither valid nor invalid, etc., etc., etc.

Cut the parc [read that backward], get to the dictionaries and find out from the words in dictionaries: concept and valid [or invalid], and thus when you are using your reason productively, you know already what is a valid concept as opposed to an invalid concept.

Do you need any assistance from me to tell you what is a valid concept as opposed to an invalid concept?


Dear readers here, posters like siti and leibowde84, I know their kind, they do not think for themselves but rely on what they read, without a critical mind.

You try this experiment, ask them, "Tell me what is your concept of God."

See if they will not go about in effect beating about the bush, but ne'er saying anything of their concept of god or God.

Okay, leibowde84, why not ask me for what is a valid concept, from my stock knowledge of English vocabulary required to think on reason and grounded on observation, as to come to intelligent conclusion on any issue that has to do with anything at all, in the default status of things in the totality of reality which is existence.

 

[Sanmario]

@leibowde84


You ask me, ""What evidence do you have to support your claim that God is the creator of everything with a beginning?"

Babies, roses, the moon, the sun, and your own nose.

Yes, you are correct babies come from their parents, but where do parents come from?

Name more things components of the universe, okay?

Now, look up dictionaries and choose a concept of god or God there, and then we will see whether you have gotten the correct concept of God in the philosophy of God with theists in Christianism, Islam, and Judaism.

So, examples of evidence for God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning, they are all things in existence in the universe studied by scientists.

Now, what are the components of the universe, don't they all have a beginning in the universe and with the universe, the one studied by scientists?

 

[Sanmario]

@leibowde84
@siti


You two read from the same sources that the universe has no beginning.

How do the source explain why universe has no beginning?

And how do I prove the universe has a beginning?

Simple, it's components all have a beginning, and it itself comes with the beginning of time and space, so there, it has a beginning in time and in space.


Now, dear readers, let us sit back and await with bated breath for lei and siti to reply to this post from yours truly.

 

[Sanmario]

@leibowde84
@siti



Here is again my proof from evidence that God exists in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

Dear lei and siti, for now just pay attention to step 1 and step 2.

Step 1 is the concept in our mind, step 2 is the expedition into the realm of realities outside our mind and independent of our mind, to look for all instances of things with a beginning.

So, what is circular in my transit from the concept in my mind of God as creator of everything with a beginning, to my expedition into the realm of realities outside and independent of my mind, to look for everything like babies and roses and the moon and the sun which all have a beginning, therefore are pieces of evidence for God in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning?

There, steps 3, 4, 5, 6 follow.

 

[siti]

@Sanmario Please present your evidence proving that the universe had a beginning.

Evidence = established facts, direct observations, logical deductions, reasonable arguments

Universe = everything (or if you want a fuller definition, everything that has objective existence - i.e. that could, at least in principle, be observed)

Now - to follow your style of debate - I'm going to have tea and whistle a happy tune whilst I await your response. Actually the tea bit is true - green tea, no sugar - high in healthful polyphenols and flavanoids - apparently these anti-oxidants are good for the health - its also refreshing - would you like a cup?

 

[Sanmario]

@siti
@leibowde84

Here is my evidence, see texts put in bold by me, in Annex below.

It is everything with a beginning in the universe plus the universe itself which started with time and space, so that the universe started to exist at the point where time and space started to exist, with the universe, they started together, that is the universe where we have our life, make our movement, and have our being.

Focus on the texts in bold in the Annex.


Now, it is your turn to present your evidence that the universe has no beginning, by looking for evidence with an expedition to the universe to look for everything with a beginning.


Yes, siti, we can both sit back with readers here, and witness from me with bated breath, how you focus on the texts put in bold by me, below in Annex.


Annex

@leibowde84
@siti
______________________

Here is again my proof from evidence that God exists in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

Dear lei and siti, for now just pay attention to step 1 and step 2.

Step 1 is the concept in our mind, step 2 is the expedition into the realm of realities outside our mind and independent of our mind, to look for all instances of things with a beginning.

So, what is circular in my transit from the concept in my mind of God as creator of everything with a beginning, to my expedition into the realm of realities outside and independent of my mind, to look for everything like babies and roses and the moon and the sun which all have a beginning, therefore are pieces of evidence for God in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning?

There, steps 3, 4, 5, 6 follow.


Post #268 Sanmario, Today at 5:23 AM

 

[Sanmario]

@siti
@leibowde84



Dear siti, I almost forgot, please give four examples each of your concept of evidence and of components of your concept of the universe.


Dear readers here, let us all sit back and await with bated breath for siti to present four examples of evidence, and four components of his concept of the universe.

 

[siti]

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning....

So, what is circular in my transit from the concept in my mind of God as creator of everything with a beginning, to my expedition into the realm of realities outside and independent of my mind, to look for everything like babies and roses and the moon and the sun which all have a beginning, therefore are pieces of evidence for God in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning?

So your evidence-based logical argument is that because babies, roses, the moon and the sun all have a beginning, God must exist?

You ask me to focus on the bits of your argument in bold type and present 4 examples of evidence...OK - can I choose the same examples as you - so that we are comparing like with like. Here goes:

1. babies are born,
2. roses bloom,
3. the moon waxes and wanes
4. the sun rises and sets...

...every day without any objective evidence of God's involvement. All this happens according to well-established physical laws and principles that are well understood and that seem, as far as we can possibly tell by observation, to be inviolate and universal. There is no necessity at all to invoke supernatural explanations for any of these "beginnings". We know how babies are made, we know how plants blossom, we know how stars are formed and we have a few ideas about the origin of the moon - we do know it was formed about the same time as the earth and its origin was almost certainly the result of the accretion process that was the beginning the solar system. None of these explanations require supernatural intervention. None of them, in themselves provide any evidence of a supernatural creation. The beginning of ALL of these was in a region of space something like this:

This is, in fact, the Orion Nebula - a region of space you can even observe with the naked eye or with binoculars. You can find it in the "sword" of Orion - below his belt - the pink patch in the picture below:

This is a region of hot, dense, interstellar gas and dust that is in the process of fusing together to form new stars. It was from a very similar situation that our sun with its planets, moons and eventually flowers and babies had its beginning. Everything you mention began there.

If you want to know where the interstellar gas and dust came from, you're in luck - as of now, we know a fair bit more about it see this article. But we've know for a long time that it comes from supernovae - old stars that exploded spewing their contents far and wide. Our sun and solar system including every single atom in your body is made of recycled star stuff and that stuff has been around at least since the Big Bang - which as far as we know happened about 13.8 billion of our current earth years ago. Before that, we have no idea. We just do not know whether that was actually the beginning or not - or even if there was actually a beginning or not.

That, my dear friend, is a fact.

 

[Sanmario]

@siti
@leibowde84


Dear siti, you talk too much but of no worth at all to convince people like me, who have reason as to think from observation and arrive at ultimate intelligent explanation for the existence of everything we know to have a beginning, at which point of its beginning its existence appeared.

That intelligent explanation is founded upon the concept of a creator in our mind, by which concept we proceed to the realm of existence, like where we see babies, roses, the sun and the moon and everything in the universe, including the universe, to have a beginning, whereby they are all evidence to the existence in the objective reality, of a being corresponding to our mind of the concept, namely, the creator of everything with a beginning.

Word count = 128


Okay, no more verbiage, for no amount of verbiage is of any worth from you.

Be precise and concise and insightful, produce your intelligent explanation for the existence of babies, roses, the sun, the moon, and everything with a beginning, in not more than 128 words.


Dear readers here, let us all sit back and await with bated breath for dear siti to produce his rebuttal also from evidence of my explanation from evidence on how God exists in objective reality in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning.

So, explain from evidence why my proof of God existing etc., is not valid, in not more than 128 words.

 

[Sanmario]

@siti
@leibowde84


See you all guys tomorrow morning.

Thanks everyone for your presence and participation.

Signing off, 12:54 p.m. i.e. 1251 hours, April 12, 2017 Wednesday.

 

[siti]

explain from evidence why my proof of God existing etc., is not valid, in not more than 128 words.

Because you cannot prove that the universe had a beginning. (9 words)

Now for the eleventy first time: please post your evidence to prove the universe had a beginning.

PS -

you talk too much but of no worth at all to convince people like me

I know - it wasn't really meant for you ("pearls before swine" and all) - but I really like the idea that you can look at the sky and see a tiny pink blurry patch and know that new suns and new planets and maybe new life are in the process of emerging from the natural process of cosmic evolution. There are millions of these 'stellar nurseries' scattered throughout the universe. It just blows my mind to think of it - and when I look, a tiny bit of that naturally creative energy (a stream of photons) has actually entered my body. When it set off on its journey towards my eyeball, the Prophet Muhammad was still alive. And, to me, it speaks more eloquently than any prophet - because - like fossils, and living cells and all the other evidence that tells us that our origins are natural, it cannot lie. And none of it tells me there needed to be a either a beginning or a supernatural creator.

 

[leibowde84]

@siti
@leibowde84

Here is my evidence, see texts put in bold by me, in Annex below.

It is everything with a beginning in the universe plus the universe itself which started with time and space, so that the universe started to exist at the point where time and space started to exist, with the universe, they started together, that is the universe where we have our life, make our movement, and have our being.

Focus on the texts in bold in the Annex.


Now, it is your turn to present your evidence that the universe has no beginning, by looking for evidence with an expedition to the universe to look for everything with a beginning.


Yes, siti, we can both sit back with readers here, and witness from me with bated breath, how you focus on the texts put in bold by me, below in Annex.


Annex

Yet again, you refuse to address our questions. YOUR ARGUMENT IS CLEARLY CIRCULAR, so we can't proceed until that is rectified.

I'll explain why:

All you are actually proving is IF god is the creator of everything with a beginning, THEN god exists. If we assume that your concept of god is correct, we have no reason to go any further, as it assumes, without any evidence or argument, that god exists. I ASSUME YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT ... ALTHOUGH WHAT YOU HAVE DONE SO FAR SUGGESTS OTHERWISE.

YOU HAVE TO FIRST PROVE THAT GOD IS THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING WITH A BEGINNING BEFORE WE CAN MOVE FURTHER!!

If you are unwilling to do this, then we cannot go forward. It is a waste of time to debate someone who is stubbornly clinging to a circular argument.

 

[Sanmario]

@siti
@leibowde84


Dear siti and lei, you are both into the insistence that you have evidence that the universe has no beginning?

And I am into the insistence that I have evidence of the universe having a beginning.

What do you say, shall we each one produce the evidence?


Dear readers here, let us sit back and await with bated breath to witness how siti and lei will accept my challenge to them both, as they are of the insistence that the universe has no beginning, and I that it has a beginning; so let us you readers and I the author of this thread on Is it possible to talk with an atheist? witness how they will accept my challenge that from both sides, from them and from me, we each respectively present evidence.


Okay, dear siti and lei, produce your evidence, or you want me to be first to produce evidence?


Now, dear readers here, this is very exciting, let us await with bated breath to witness how siti and lei will reply to my challenge!

I tell you now, they will be as usual into beating about the bush, going into empty verbiage.

 

[Sanmario]

@siti
@leibowde84

Dear readers and posters, and in particular siti and leibowde84, this is my second call to you, to reply to my immediately preceding post, here I will reproduce it below, in Annex.

It is now in my place 03:30 a.m. Thursday, April 13, 2017, and my immediately preceding post here was transmitted at 01:45 a.m. earlier.

It is Maundy Thursday in my place today, all offices government and business are into no work status, in deference to the observance of Holy Week in this predominantly Roman Catholic country.

Okay, siti and lei, this is my second call to you, reply to my immediately preceding post which is reproduced below in Annex.


Dear readers, let us all sit back and witness with bated breath when and how siti and lei will react to my post of concern, see Annex.

Annex

@siti
@leibowde84



Dear siti and lei, you are both into the insistence that you have evidence that the universe has no beginning?

And I am into the insistence that I have evidence of the universe having a beginning.

What do you say, shall we each one produce the evidence?


Dear readers here, let us sit back and await with bated breath to witness how siti and lei will accept my challenge to them both, as they are of the insistence that the universe has no beginning, and I that it has a beginning; so let us you readers and I the author of this thread on Is it possible to talk with an atheist? witness how they will accept my challenge that from both sides, from them and from me, we each respectively present evidence.


Okay, dear siti and lei, produce your evidence, or you want me to be first to produce evidence?


Now, dear readers here, this is very exciting, let us await with bated breath to witness how siti and lei will reply to my challenge!

I tell you now, they will be as usual into beating about the bush, going into empty verbiage.


Po#276 Sanmario, Today at 1:45 AM

 

[siti]

Dear siti and lei, you are both into the insistence that you have evidence that the universe has no beginning?

No - I have not said that anywhere - what I said was that you can't prove that it did. I have now asked more than ten times (I think) to produce your proof that universe had a beginning.

And I am into the insistence that I have evidence of the universe having a beginning.

So you keep saying, but to date you have produced not a single sentence in evidence - not one word that actually constitutes evidence that the universe actually had a beginning. So once again

Please present your evidence that proves that the universe had a beginning.

 

[Sanmario]

@siti
@leibowde84


Dear siti:
Do you have evidence that the universe has no beginning?

Don't reply to anything else, just that question, and don't make excuses, just say yes or no, like this:

Yes, I have evidence the universe has no beginning.
Or
No, I have no evidence the universe has no beginning.


Here is my answer to my question, Do I have evidence that the universe have a beginning?
YES, I have evidence that the universe has a beginning.


Then when you have answered any way, yes or not, we will continue from that point onward; but you know already I am saying Yes I have evidence that the universe has a beginning.


Okay, dear readers here, let us sit back and await with bated breath for siti to reply to my request.

 

[columbus]

Do you have evidence that the universe has no beginning?

Yes and it has been presented to you in more than one post.
Tom

 

[siti]

Yes, I have evidence the universe has no beginning.