Is it possible to talk with an atheist?

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84



Dear leibowde84, when you return don't forget to comply with my request to you, read the line I put in bold below in my quote.

Your request is very hard to understand, but I assume you are asking me why your argument is guilty of utilizing circular reasoning/logic.

I've complied with this request 5 times now, as I have repeatedly explained what circular reasoning is and how your concept/argument for God's existence is guilty of it.

But, I will comply one more time:

Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. They are assuming their conclusion in their premise.

In your argument, you start with the assumption that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. IF your concept that God is the creator of everything with a beginning is accepted, THEN God must exist. So, your conclusion is assumed in your premise that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. That is logically fallacious.

Therefore, you must first prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. You cannot assume that as fact in an argument for God's existence without proving it to be true.

So, what is your evidence that God is the creator of everything with a beginning?

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84



Dear leibowde84, when you return don't forget to comply with my request to you, read the line I put in bold below in my quote.

Now can you comply with my request?

What is your evidence proving that God is the creator of everything with a beginning?

 

[icehorse]

Dear readers and posters here, please abstain from talking on imaginary scenarios, if you have no experience at all of something and can never have that experience as to talk from experience, please just don't talk at all, i.e. over imaginary scenarios.

First off, please DO use the @membername facility so that we can be alerted when you respond. That's only courteous.

Now, if you're referring to my claim that the world's best thinkers admit that they don't understand the true nature of time, then speculating that time might behave in ways different than what we experience is completely valid. Scientists do us the courtesy of admitting when they don't know the answer to a question, it would behoove you to do the same.

In other words, for you to claim that "all things have a beginning", is simply speculation on your part. It might be true, it might not.

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84

Okay, dear lei, where is the circular reasoning in my text below, and tell me at what point in the line of words is the beginning of the circle, and at what point is the ending of the circle?

​

Your circular reasoning occurs in #1 where you state your concept of God in an effort to argue for the existence of God. In your concept, you already assume that God exists. In other words, if God is the creator of everything with a beginning, then God necessarily exists. In an argument for God's existence, you cannot demand that your audience accept God's existence. In order for anyone to accept that God is the creator of everything that has a beginning they must first accept that God exists.

The below is nonsensical, as circles do not have beginnings or ends.
"... tell me at what point in the line of words is the beginning of the circle, and at what point is the ending of the circle?"

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84

Okay, dear lei, where is the circular reasoning in my text below, and tell me at what point in the line of words is the beginning of the circle, and at what point is the ending of the circle?

​

Now that I have answered all of your questions, will you please answer one of mine? This will be the 14th time I've asked it.

What evidence do you have to prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning?

 

[Shad]

2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.

Since you have never left Earth you can not look for everything with a beginning. You are restricted by location, time, capability and technology. This makes this statement false. At best you can could look at things which are capable of being observed by humans. However this makes the statement inductive if you extend your observations to the unknown. The only way for this statement to work within deductive reasoning is if it only applies to known thus can not be a universal.

The premise is stated poorly to the point that it is fallacious, namely selection bias or an unstated assertion. If you are only looking for things with a beginning then you are not looking for things without a beginning.

3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.

See above

4. So, there are everything with a beginng that we are living with and in and within.

See above. This is an assertion

5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

The only cause you have linked is God and have done so only by a definition. You have no actually discovered a cause of anything, you asserted it due to a definition. My parents created me not God, an artist creates art not God, etc. Your definition also causes issues for free will. If God created everything with a beginning than no artist every created anything as by your definition only God can do so. So either your statement is false, which it is, or we are puppets with no free will

6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

Begging the question as your conclusion is merely point 1. reformed. Also by your own definition of God evidence is irrelevant thus your whole argument is merely a long-winded tautology thus not a argument at all.

 

[Sanmario]

@Shad


Dear stranger Shad, welcome to my thread.

First, can you tell me what is that number after my name, it is now 73, thanks.

Now, will you just simply tell me what is your concept of God, if you have any information at all of a concept of God inside your brain; there, we can get started, with us two first working as to come to concur on the concept of God.

Here is my concept of God:
"In concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning."

When you write to reply to this post from me, first and foremost, present your concept of God, any information at all that you have inside your brain of a concept of God, okay?

It seems that my last corresponding poster here, one leibowde84, has given up to continue our dialogue; too bad, and I thought that he was an enterprising person.

He is obsessed with circular reasoning and see everything that he does not genuinely comprehend to be circular reasoning, if not then the he voices out that he can't understand me.

Okay, let us we two see how you fare, as you seem to be a sensible person.

 

[Sanmario]

Dear readers here old and new, let us sit back and await with bated breath to witness how Shad is going to react to my post addressed to him, he seems like a sensible person.

I am just inviting him to present, when he writes to reply to my earlier post here, the concept of God, if he has any of information on the concept of God inside his brain.

That is what I find most interesting, when I ask posters here who care to talk God with me, on whether He exists or not, they all seem to be very reluctant if not resistant altogether, to come up with any concept of God, I mean a piece of information inside their brain, conveying the thought of a concept of God.

You see, everyone here, it is impossible to have a viable exchange with another human, unless he and I have a mutually concurred on concept of God - that is obvious, isn't it?

I am reproducing my OP below, please everyone read it to get yourselves properly oriented.

I am a theist, and I love to talk with atheists on the issue of God exists or not.

Is it possible to talk with them, and I am not into converting them to accept the existence of God, but just to get to learn from them to think better, on the issue God exists or not.

To learn from them as to think better, am I lying?

No, I am not lying, I really want to see how they think as to themselves come to their position that there is no God; in that way I can and will get to be a better thinker, from knowing how others think who do not share my position of God existing.

It is like that I eat meat and vegetable, but there are folks who are vegetarians, so by talking with them on how to eat better, I can and will learn to adopt a better diet.

So, let me see if any atheists will talk with me.

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84


Dear lei, please try to understand instruction, okay?

I tell you:

"Okay, dear lei, where is the circular reasoning in my text below, and tell me at what point in the line of words is the beginning of the circle, and at what point is the ending of the circular reasoning line?"

So, I will reproduce again for you, the proof from me of God existing, you please put the letter b to indicate the beginning of the circular reasoning line, and the letter e to indicate the ending of the circular reasoning line, okay?

​

Alright, this is getting ridiculous now. I have answered this question seven times now, explaining clearly that line 1, stating that "God is the creator of everything with a beginning", is where your circular logic begins and ends.

b 1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning. e

You expect us to accept it as true that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. If we are to merely take your word for it and assume that you are correct that God is the creator of everything with a beginning, we must also assume that God exists. This is a clear example of circular reasoning, as you are assuming that God exists in your concept of God.

Please show me the same respect that I have shown you and answer the following question:

What evidence do you have to prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning?

 

[Sanmario]

@leibowde84


Dear leibowde84

You say this statement from me is circular reasoninng.

b 1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning. e​

I don't see any reasoning there, much less circular reasoning.
______________________

quote From Sanmario


@leibowde84


Dear lei, please try to understand instruction, okay?

I tell you:
"Okay, dear lei, where is the circular reasoning in my text below, and tell me at what point in the line of words is the beginning of the circle, and at what point is the ending of the circular reasoning line?"

So, I will reproduce again for you, the proof from me of God existing, you please put the letter b to indicate the beginning of the circular reasoning line, and the letter e to indicate the ending of the circular reasoning line, okay?

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.


Post #329 Sanmario, Yesterday at 1:25 PM
End of quote from Sanmario​

[ QUOTE = "leibowde84, post: 5150070, member: 56049" ] Alright, this is getting ridiculous now. I have answered this question seven times now, explaining clearly that line 1, stating that "God is the creator of everything with a beginning", is where your circular logic begins and ends.

b 1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning. e

You expect us to accept it as true that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. If we are to merely take your word for it and assume that you are correct that God is the creator of everything with a beginning, we must also assume that God exists. This is a clear example of circular reasoning, as you are assuming that God exists in your concept of God.

Please show me the same respect that I have shown you and answer the following question:

What evidence do you have to prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning? [ /QUOTE ]

 

[columbus]

I've complied with this request 5 times now, as I have repeatedly explained what circular reasoning is and how your concept/argument for God's existence is guilty of it.

But, I will comply one more time:

I don't understand why you find this thread so interesting.
Could you explain that?
Please.
Regards,
Tom

 

[Shad]

@Shad



First, can you tell me what is that number after my name, it is now 73, thanks.

Sorry but I do not know what you are referring to. There is your post count and likes but neither is 7 nor are these numbers relevant

.

Now, will you just simply tell me what is your concept of God, if you have any information at all of a concept of God inside your brain; there, we can get started, with us two first working as to come to concur on the concept of God.

As per my religious tag God is a meaningless term outside of religion. I follow no religion so have no concept of God of my own which is not derived from existing religious concepts. I can talk about concepts of God, or gods, within a context which I did with your concept. I was taking issue with your concept of God as the concept has a key error as other things can cause things with a beginning.

It seems that my last corresponding poster here, one leibowde84, has given up to continue our dialogue; too bad, and I thought that he was an enterprising person.

No he seemed to have stopped as you were either not capable of understanding your own fallacious argument or in denial of it being fallacious. At a certain point it is better to walk away from an argument with people that are not capable of evaluating what they and other people have said.

He is obsessed with circular reasoning and see everything that he does not genuinely comprehend to be circular reasoning, if not then the he voices out that he can't understand me.

His point is correct your argument is fallacious. If he has trouble understanding you have you considered it is you not him? Your English is very poor for starters with statements such as "I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning." Were you not in the "realm" of existence prior to this statement. Where where you before this? Do you not exist? How did you get here? Can you go back?

Okay, let us we two see how you fare, as you seem to be a sensible person.

How I fare? By what standard are you judging me or what I say?

 

[Shad]

I don't understand why you find this thread so interesting.
Could you explain that?
Please.
Regards,
Tom

Its like watching Nascar waiting for a crash to happen. You know it will happen so endure the normal race until such a time.

 

[Sanmario]

Where am I before I go out to look for evidence of God existing, in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning?

I am in my home thinking over my thoughts in my mind, on the concept of God as the creator of everything with a beginning.

Then I go from thinking in my mind to observing things like the nose in my face, and the babies in the neighborhood, and roses in gardens, etc., and you know what? everything has a beginning.

Therefore this everything with a beginning which I see and experience, they are evidence of God Who made them all, that is why they began to exist from the point before which they were not in existence.

Simple, isn’t it?

Now, tell me, where is the circular reasoning there?

But I will bring up again to you guys, my proof in six steps.


1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.

2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.

3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.

4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.

5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.


See if you can point out the circular reasoning there.



So, tell me where is the circular reasoning in my thinking in my mind, and in my going from thinking in my mind to observing things outside my mind to determine whether they have a beginning?

Tell you what, guys, tell me something you know to not have a beginning.

 

[Sanmario]

Wait, that list of six steps, I missed one step, the No. 6 step.

Here, the whole argument again, in all six steps, see where is the circular reasoning you guys are looking for.


1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.

2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.

3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.

4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.

5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.


But you guys should do some genuine thinking on reason focused on observation, instead of regurgitating borrowed ideas which are nonsense, even though you guys feel so smugly arrogant.

 

[Sanmario]

@leibowde84


Dear leibowde84, you are taking to flight, like creatures of darkness that cannot stand the light - though you can run still you cannot hide.

So, when you if ever you return, let you just present one objection per post against my proof of God existing [see Annex below], from the evidence of everything in the universe studied by scientists, they all have a beginning, like babies at home, roses in gardens, the sun and the moon and galaxies and sub-atomic particles, etc., and the universe itself: they all have a beginning.

Dear readers here, let us all sit back and await with bated breath for leibowde84 and company to return, I tell you they have only one objection and that a fake objection against my proof of God existing, from evidence existing in the universe of things with a beginning, including the universe itself.

Their one fake objection consists in hanging to their sign board of "circular reasoning," and then insisting that I produce the evidence, when they do not know what is evidence, that is why when they read my proof from evidence, they don't see the evidence, because they are always keeping themselves to the dark.

Okay, dear leibowde84 and company, I will now devote my time with making commentaries on my six step proof for God existing, from evidence, God in concept as the [in concept] creator of everything with a beginning.

All the time I challenge leibowde84 and company to point out the circular reasoning in my proof, but they have not pointed out at all the text where the circular reasoning is supposedly committed.

So, dear readers here, I will now devote my time to making commentaries on my proof of God existing, from evidence of all things with a beginning - systematically starting step by step, with No. 1 step, on the concept of God, then No. 2 and so on.

Annex

Here, the whole argument again, in all six steps, see where is the circular reasoning you guys are looking for.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.

2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.

3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.

4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.

5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.​

But you guys should do some genuine thinking on reason focused on observation, instead of regurgitating borrowed ideas which are nonsense, even though you guys feel so smugly arrogant.


Post #339 Sanmario, Yesterday at 11:19 AM

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84


Dear leibowde84

You say this statement from me is circular reasoninng.

b 1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning. e​

I don't see any reasoning there, much less circular reasoning.
______________________

quote From Sanmario


@leibowde84


Dear lei, please try to understand instruction, okay?

I tell you:
"Okay, dear lei, where is the circular reasoning in my text below, and tell me at what point in the line of words is the beginning of the circle, and at what point is the ending of the circular reasoning line?"

So, I will reproduce again for you, the proof from me of God existing, you please put the letter b to indicate the beginning of the circular reasoning line, and the letter e to indicate the ending of the circular reasoning line, okay?

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.


Post #329 Sanmario, Yesterday at 1:25 PM
End of quote from Sanmario​

[ QUOTE = "leibowde84, post: 5150070, member: 56049" ] Alright, this is getting ridiculous now. I have answered this question seven times now, explaining clearly that line 1, stating that "God is the creator of everything with a beginning", is where your circular logic begins and ends.

b 1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning. e

You expect us to accept it as true that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. If we are to merely take your word for it and assume that you are correct that God is the creator of everything with a beginning, we must also assume that God exists. This is a clear example of circular reasoning, as you are assuming that God exists in your concept of God.

Please show me the same respect that I have shown you and answer the following question:

What evidence do you have to prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning? [ /QUOTE ]

I explained it clearly. You obviously do not understand what circular reasoning is:

b 1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning. e

You expect us to accept it as true that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. If we are to merely take your word for it and assume that you are correct that God is the creator of everything with a beginning, we must also assume that God exists. This is a clear example of circular reasoning, as you are assuming that God exists in your concept of God.

To rectify this, you merely must prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. Please do so. If you cannot, simply admit that you cannot.

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84


Dear leibowde84, you are taking to flight, like creatures of darkness that cannot stand the light - though you can run still you cannot hide.

So, when you if ever you return, let you just present one objection per post against my proof of God existing [see Annex below], from the evidence of everything in the universe studied by scientists, they all have a beginning, like babies at home, roses in gardens, the sun and the moon and galaxies and sub-atomic particles, etc., and the universe itself: they all have a beginning.

Dear readers here, let us all sit back and await with bated breath for leibowde84 and company to return, I tell you they have only one objection and that a fake objection against my proof of God existing, from evidence existing in the universe of things with a beginning, including the universe itself.

Their one fake objection consists in hanging to their sign board of "circular reasoning," and then insisting that I produce the evidence, when they do not know what is evidence, that is why when they read my proof from evidence, they don't see the evidence, because they are always keeping themselves to the dark.

Okay, dear leibowde84 and company, I will now devote my time with making commentaries on my six step proof for God existing, from evidence, God in concept as the [in concept] creator of everything with a beginning.

All the time I challenge leibowde84 and company to point out the circular reasoning in my proof, but they have not pointed out at all the text where the circular reasoning is supposedly committed.

So, dear readers here, I will now devote my time to making commentaries on my proof of God existing, from evidence of all things with a beginning - systematically starting step by step, with No. 1 step, on the concept of God, then No. 2 and so on.

Annex

Please provide your proof that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. You have failed to even attempt that argument, as you merely assume it to be true.

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84
@ALL readers and posters


Here is No. 1 step of my proof for God existing, from evidence of everything in the universe having a beginning, including the universe itself.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.​

Now, dear leibowde84 and company, there in No. 1 you guys already bring in the word, presumption, which for you is the give-away of my circular reasoning, because a concept of something is already the presumption that it exists.

So, according to you guys, the concept of God from me, namely, "[In concept] God is the creator of everything with a beginning," that is a presumption, and therefore I am into a fallacy.

You see, you guys are so very naive, now tell me what about in court there is invoked the law that an accused is presumed innocent; so the court and the law are into a fallacy?


I will be back later in the late afternoon.

It is now in my place 06:46 .a.m. Easter Sunday, April 16, 2017.

​

Annex

All you have to do is prove that your concept is true. Namely, that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. It is unreasonable to expect us to just accept that as being true.

 

[leibowde84]

I don't understand why you find this thread so interesting.
Could you explain that?
Please.
Regards,
Tom

I guess it is not worth my time. @Sanmario refuses to provide his evidence that god is the creator of everything with a beginning.