Is it possible to talk with an atheist?

[crowfeather]

Of course it is possible to talk with an atheist. It is communicating with them that routinely fails.

 

[icehorse]

@Sanmario said in the OP:

1. I am a theist, and I love to talk with atheists on the issue of God exists or not.

This is not strictly true. What you have demonstrated is that you need for us to also accept your definition of the word "begin".

So tell us, once and for all, since we're in the philosophy forum, what axioms are you using for your argument? We can choose for ourselves whether we think it's worth debating you based on your axioms.

To be clear, it would appear that one of your axioms is that we must accept your understanding of how things in the universe begin and end. What other axioms do you have?

 

[crowfeather]

Dear crawfeather, you say:
"Of course it is possible to talk with an atheist. It is communicating with them that routinely fails." Post #489 crowfeather, Today at 11:52 AM

That is some perceptive insight, please for my curiosity give one instance of possibly talking with an atheist, and one instance of routinely failing to communicate with atheists.

The atheist starts out from a defined position of 'there is no god'. Since there is no god, the atheist inhabits an existence where there is no god. When you talk to this atheist, from a position of there IS a God, the both of you are inhabiting parallel universes. To the atheist, there is only agree/disagree. To disagree is to be at odds with. Being at odds prevents communication.
Really, this can not be explained further, yet it is an observable phenomenon. Neither good, nor bad, it is simply the way it is.

To one who knows God, and really, almost nobody actually does, his whole frame of reference is unknown, and unimaginable, to the atheist, who, upon encountering it, can do nothing else but attempt to combat it.

 

[Sanmario]

Thanks, crawfeather, for your observation.

But as we all have reason, it follows that we can communicate unless we refuse to use our reason, and that has been my observation since when I started to engage with atheists on the issue God exists or not.

Please continue in this thread, and observe who is using reason and who is not.

See next post.

 

[siti]

Laws governing everything in the universe and the universe itself have a beginning.

Prove it!

 

[crowfeather]

But as we all have reason, it follows that we can communicate unless we refuse to use our reason, and that has been my observation since when I started to engage with atheists on the issue God exists or not.

We may all have reason, but we don't all use it.
Reason is a mind thing: it sets one up as judge of what is reasonable and what is not. As if we would know
I observe, and report what I see, as crows generally do. They seem noisy, to those who do not understand.
All paths in the mind lead finally to dead ends.
My path has no end point, and into it excitedly and rapturous, I fall...
...into the open sky.

 

[Sanmario]

Dear crawfeather one, you say: "All paths in the mind lead finally to dead ends."

You can rebut that by thinking of eating chicken tonight, that is in your mind; so when you on your way home buy a roast chicken to bring home to your family, that proves your overwhelming statement to be wrong.

Now, I like to know what dead ends are you talking about, with the use of reason which is in our mind: how does the use of reason "lead finally to dead ends"?

Lack of the use of reason leads to mental asylum or to prison, for folks who cannot owing to some disease of their brain, or by wilful and perverse choice refuse to act according to reason.

 

[siti]

Lack of the use of reason leads to mental asylum or to prison

...or Church.

 

[Sanmario]

Dear crawfeather one, I am a diy liberal Christian, I don't go for church attendance, but I invite fellow diy liberal Christians for fellowship get-together in public places like shopping malls, in their dining halls.

But the Christian churches are all right because they do perform a service for members who are too busy to sort out things for themselves; and among religions, today Christianism is the most rational compared to other faith systems, in regard to avoidance of bigotry and violence in the cause of their religion.

 

[icehorse]

And for icehorse, to tell us if and when he has read up on concepts of God, what he has learned of information on the concepts of God with people who do know God exists.

I understand many different concepts of god that many different people hold. And I'm sorry, none of them "know" god exists. they have faith, but they do not "know".

 

[columbus]

Dear readers here, let us all sit back to await with bated breath for Columbus aka Tom to tell us what is his concept of singularity, by which he comes to his conviction that the universe has no beginning.

It is entirely possible to talk with an atheist.
You might try it sometime. You could learn something.

Or, maybe not.
Tom

 

[Sonofason]

I am a theist, and I love to talk with atheists on the issue of God exists or not.

Is it possible to talk with them, and I am not into converting them to accept the existence of God, but just to get to learn from them to think better, on the issue God exists or not.

To learn from them as to think better, am I lying?

No, I am not lying, I really want to see how they think as to themselves come to their position that there is no God; in that way I can and will get to be a better thinker, from knowing how others think who do not share my position of God existing.

It is like that I eat meat and vegetable, but there are folks who are vegetarians, so by talking with them on how to eat better, I can and will learn to adopt a better diet.


So, let me see if any atheists will talk with me.

First, I am amazed that people have persisted with you for over 26 pages and you still have not figured out how to use the quote feature. Anyhow, I will give my answer, without any expectation of a rebuttal or follow up, as I am quite sure I will not receive a notification that you have responded to me. Sometimes it is impossible for a believer to talk with other believers.

It is certainly possible to talk with atheists, especially on this forum, that is of course if those atheists understand the quote feature of this forum. I do it all the time.
However, I don't recommend doing that. It reminds me of another question a believer might ask. Is it possible for a believer to marry an unbeliever? Well of course it is, but is it a good idea? The Apostle Paul has said,

"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; (2 Corinthians 6:14-17)

The Apostle Peter said, "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."

Do you have any pearls? Cast them out and see what becomes of them.

 

[siti]

but you have evidence that the universe has a beginning

Then present it - so far all you have done is repeat that you have evidence that the universe had a beginning - what is your evidence?

 

[siti]

Do you have any pearls? Cast them out and see what becomes of them.

If you mean "pearls of wisdom", I'm afraid your brother has none. But don't worry about him becoming "unequally yoked" - the atheist "swine" around here will not be "rending him" - philosophically, he's doing that for himself - and I'm more than happy for him to continue - but I certainly will not be making any marriage proposals. I did, however, previously warn him in one of my earlier comments, that the more rational Christians would probably be telling him to "shut up" at some point - so your post kind of fulfills my atheistic prophecy - maybe there's more to it than I thought after all.

 

[crowfeather]

I understand many different concepts of god that many different people hold. And I'm sorry, none of them "know" god exists. they have faith, but they do not "know".

You do not know God exists. You can not know, nor speak for, what others know, or even think they know.
I do know God exists. I have taken the trouble, and made the journey, to know this thing.
It is not a belief, nor is it faith. It is direct experience, outside mortal realms.
You may read this, and be encouraged, or you may dismiss it as rubbish.
Either way, its Truth is unaffected.
It never harms one to be encouraged.

 

[leibowde84]

notwithstanding that we know from biology that the nose as with all life’s organs has a beginning,

You have not provided evidence to prove this. Can you do that?

Until then, bear with me, I cannot talk with you because you are not informed on any concept of God at all, so you will not know what I am talking about: wherefore it is useless to talk with you.

Those who do not believe that God exists are not going to have a concept of God. That is common sense.

 

[leibowde84]

Now, dear readers here, look out for leibowde84 suddenly springing forth, and start uttering again:

Presumption, presumption, no proof of God existing, it is all the fallacy of circular reasoning owing to presumption - hehehehehe.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I was pointing out that you haven't proved that God is the creator of everything with a beginning.

 

[crowfeather]

If a man invents a computer, is it reasonable to expect the computer to be aware of the existence of a man?
If a crow leaves footprints in mud, can those footprints be aware of the existence of a crow?

 

[siti]

To siti, okay, you'd better join Tom he says the singularity is the proof that the universe has no beginning, for you it is the fact that you admit you don't know nothing about the universe, therefore you are convinced the universe has no beginning.

No @Sanmario - you really need to brush up on your reading skills. You state with absolute confidence that the universe had a beginning - I say I know that we have no evidence to prove this. It is a FACT (not that you seem particularly interested in those) that we (everyone, not just me) do not know whether the universe had a beginning or not. You have had 26 pages and more than 500 posts to present your evidence to prove that the universe had a beginning and so far you have not done so. So once again, please post your evidence to prove that the universe had a beginning.

 

[siti]

First of all @Sanmario - it doesn't matter whether I actually believe that the universe had no beginning - all that matters, in terms of refuting your claim, is that there is NO evidence to prove that universe had a beginning. That makes your "everything has a beginning" premise unacceptable and without that, your "God exists as the creator of everything that has a beginning" argument fails. Unless you can prove - or at least provide a logical argument to suggest - that the universe had a beginning - your entire argument fails. And, once again, you have so far failed to provide any evidence of the universe having a beginning.

In your later version, you have gone a step further and suggested that the "Laws governing everything in the universe" had a beginning. That is an even more bizarre claim that requires, but could not possibly attain, substantiation. How could you possibly hope to prove that immaterial and apparently eternal, inviolate and unchanging laws (like logic or math) had a beginning? Is 1+1=2 eternal or was there time before which this was not true? When did this "beginning" happen?