Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God?

[Trailblazer]

Well the "all powerful God" is what certain theists assert. We all make observations about nature that is not consistent with what we humans consider moral, loving, or good. Humans also have assigned themselves special status among all other animals, and this is even more exaggerated with theists who consider our species a special, spiritual being.

I believe that humans have the 'potential' to be good, in which case I would consider them spiritual, but I do not consider humans superior to other animals. In fact, humans have the potential to be cruel and hateful and mean and evil whereas other animals have no such qualities. They just live according to their nature.

The dilemma we see is that the physical universe does not treat we human very well. We get terrible diseases, suffer harsh environments and natural disasters, have to deal with parasites and microorganisms that kill us, so how can we believe we are any different than other animals?

Yes, humans are susceptible to the same diseases as other animals but the hundred-dollar difference is that humans have medical care and scientists can discover treatments to treat many of these diseases whereas animals, particularly those in the wild, have no such care. That is why I care for wild animals, as nobody else is going to do it, and they are sentient beings with feelings just like humans have. This is a little off topic but the following video expresses my sentiments about animals and it shows the depths of deprivation to which humans can stoop, shooting an innocent wild animal for no reason.

So we atheists only point out the inconsistency between what some theists claim about humans and nature and the Creator of it all.

All I can say is that God created nature this way for a reason, a reason I am not privy to. I am not particularly happy about it, especially because animals suffer so much in the wild, and I cannot understand why a 'loving God' set things up this way. It really bothers me that God would prefer humans to other animals and I wonder if it is because humans are the only animals that can know and worship God.

So why did the Creator make a world where children are born with defects and cancers, with little chance of survival?

You tell me and we will both know. Why does God allow not only children but adult humans and other animals to suffer and die horrible deaths? It does not seem very loving to me so the best I can say is that suffering is a mystery, and I think that I will know more in the next life, as the spiritual world is the World of Lights.

I'd be impressed with a Creation where we observe children getting a free pass on diseases until they hit puberty, or something. That would be SOMETHING an all-powerful God could do for the innocent. But it created a system of genetic faults, and it is a lottery whether you lose or not.

I do not call it the lottery, I call it fate and predestination, and fate can be cruel and mean. Moreover, since God is responsible for our fates, what does that say about God? Sadly, most theists just gloss this over but I don't. I call an ace an ace and a spade a spade.

I am presently conversing with a man I met on another forum quite by accident, as he posted a thread that his daughter had just died quite suddenly and he is torn apart by grief. He is a Christian but he says he does not know what he believes anymore. I totally empathize with him because I have suffered so much and know grief only too well. I now have an ongoing private conversation with him as I want to help in any way I can. When I first met him he told me I was helping him and that means a lot to me because I care about him just as I care about everyone, especially those who are suffering, since I can relate so well to that.

What is hard to understand what use is the suffering of children with cancer. How deadly bacterias are useful for anyone. How deadly virus are useful for societies. There is a big difference between suffering emotional distress from loss, or suffering physical stress by doing exercises. It'a another to be born with cancer that will kill one child at 5 years old but not the siblings. If this is understandable by a reasonable mind, explain it.

I have just as much difficulty understanding why people suffer from mental-emotional illness as you have understanding those why children suffer from physical diseases. The man who I mentioned above lost his daughter because she was so depressed that she drank heavily and mixed drugs with alcohol which caused her sudden demise.

None of this is understandable to me so I don't try to understand it and I say I don't know why God would create a world like this. However, I believe that those who have been released for this world are much better off than we who still have to live in it. That is what we cannot see but if we believe and have faith we know that this world is only very temporary and the next world is where we are all headed, and there will be no more suffering, only joy and gladness.

I believe that the innocent children whose lives were cut short will be recompensed by God and will continue with their lives in the next world. It is those of us who are left behind to grieve who suffer, not those who have passed from this world, which is a dark and narrow place.

Part of the suffering theists experience is struggling to justify the idea of a loving God with a universe that consistently poses threats to our well-being. It would be easy to create a less deadly universe IF human life is actually valuable.

We will not see me trying to justify a loving God because there are too many logical inconsistencies.
I just got this in an e-mail and this is what I mean by logical inconsistencies.

“Voir's surgery went very well, only 4 hours for the transplant and he was released from the hospital yesterday. He wants to thank those who were praying for him, he said right after the prayer request the heart became available. He has a long way to go in his recovery and has to return to the hospital almost every day.”

Believers believe that the heart became available because of a prayer request, but what about all the prayer requests that go unanswered? Believers never talk about those. Maybe God intervened and made the heart become available, but why for one person and not another? This is what I cannot understand if God loves everyone equally. Of course there is a religious apologetic for that but I don't much care for apologetics.

Imo, theists who believe that God is loving believe that for a reason, and it is psychological. They have to believe that God is good so God has to be loving. Also, they want to feel loved by God so God must be loving. This makes theists feel good about God but I don't care about feeling good, I just want to know the truth. I do not know what the truth is but I cannot believe what makes no sense to me and God will just have to forgive me. I don't hate God anymore but I don't love God either. I believe that God exists but I do not try to embellish God with human qualities such as love.

If human life isn't valuable then there is no morality around murder or abortion or even any other type of harm to others.

I fully agree.

There is no reason to believe Messengers of God are authentic.

There is no reason for you to believe that but I have reasons for believing that.

 

[ppp]

The bottom line is those who wrote Bible stories, and the lore they were based on, did not consider the stories would be taken literally, and then be subjected to criticism. I don't think these stories were written to make sense, but as a narrative for the cultures they were part of. In modern societies that include the Abrahamic religions, it's not possible to try to make them fit a rational and true framework. The mental gymnastics are exhausting for believers.

Look at the fiction of any culture from any time. Narratives for a culture reflect the mores of that culture. The only way for the stories to be written to not make sense, is if the author and listeners thought that their culture did not make sense.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I mean, I would consider disaster, woe, bad times, calamity, and trouble to be part of what evil is. And why would a benevolent god create these things? How does a tsunami hitting a city promote the exercise of human free will? I just don't see it. And no one is saying a god should fix everything, but stopping earthquakes and cancer in toddlers would at least be reasonable, right?

You also must realize that the observable world is also entirely consistent with a random, mindless natural universe, right? Or a god that is apathetic? Or a god that is evil but allows some good in order to give us the free choice to choose evil over good? You can invent ad hoc speculation to explain why a benevolent god would act in a way that seems non-benevolent. For someone who doesn't already believe, though, these arguments are nothing. I might as well argue that there's a magic fairy who, for mysterious reasons, makes my 6-sized dice turn up the number 3 roughly 1/6th of the time I roll it, instead of random chance. I'd be free to believe it, but it sure isn't persuasive, and it sure isn't evidence of any kind.

"For God so loved the world..." but the same God creates disasters, calamity, woes, and makes trouble. The same God allowed six million Jews to be gassed to death. The same God allows innocent children to be molested or raped or die of a deadly disease or die of a deadly virus or starve to death or be physically abused or even murdered. The same God allows people to be murdered in cold blood or die in a horrific accident or die of a deadly disease or die of a deadly virus or be physically abused or be sexually assaulted.

How can an all-powerful God, who claims to love the world, allow any of these atrocities and tragedies to happen? That's not love, is it? That's evil, wicked, sadistic, and barbaric. Wouldn't this God be a sadistic psychopath who takes pleasure in inflicting pain?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can an all-powerful God, who claims to love the world, allow any of these atrocities and tragedies to happen? That's not love, is it? That's evil, wicked, sadistic, and barbaric. Wouldn't this god be a sadistic psychopath who takes pleasure in inflicting pain?

I do not think it is logical to conclude that because there is so much suffering in the world God is a sadistic psychopath who takes pleasure in inflicting pain, because it is not God who is inflicting the pain.

As I always say, I think the more useful question is why God created a world like this in the first place, a world that is a storehouse of suffering, and there really is no answer to that question, except the religious apologetic that suffering is good for us. I do not buy that bill of goods even if it is sometimes true.

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

Let’s look at some of these statements:

Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world.

Well, that is just not entirely true, because first, we are bound to it because we have to live in it; and second, comfort is indeed secured for many people, just not for others. I agree that for every sweet cup a bitter one will follow, but not a hundred bitter ones. I guess he was just trying to drive home his point, but I do not think it is right to say things that are not actually true.

The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.

But even if we do not attach ourselves to this world or depend upon it, we have to live in it, and for some of us it is torturous much of the time, through no fault of our own. Free will is very limited to change many things so they have to be endured.

My other issue with this passage is that scriptures say that God does not test people beyond their capacity, but if that was true, nobody would ever commit suicide. To say that God did not give that person more than he could handle is as much as calling him a coward, but notice that he said in the second paragraph that the man will be immersed in the ocean of God’s pardon and forgiveness and will become the recipient of bounty and favor. However, the real question is why such an honorable man had been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world if all he had to do to avoid it is to call upon God, and by His great Mercy be helped.

I rest my case.

 

[AlexanderG]

No, I am not arguing that at all. Why would God be to blame if He was all-powerful? Just because God is all-powerful that does not mean God is obligated to use His power to do things that atheists think He should do. An all-powerful God only does what He chooses to do, not what people want Him to do. Try to think about why.

No, I am not saying that either. Nothing is too hard for an all-powerful and all-knowing God. God wanted to design the world this way or it would not be this way.

God does not want to put an end to all suffering, is that hard to understand? God is all-knowing so God knows more than you since you are not all-knowing so God knows what is in the best interest of humans.

God's purpose for humans is not to make sure they are happy all the time. This short life is a preparation for the next life, which is forever. If we play our cards right here there will be no more suffering in the next life, only joy and gladness.

Again, God could have done that if He wanted to, but the fact that this is not what we see tells us that is not what God chose to do. We either accept that or remain in torment over it or we are apathetic about it. I don't like suffering any more than you do, especially because most of my life has been suffering, but I finally decided to try to make peace with it.

The only way we can ever know anything about God is through the Messengers of God. The reason I believe God is good and loving is because of what the Messengers said. If I did not have scriptures I might think like you because I would look at the world and see all the suffering. Of course there is a lot of good in the world too, a lot of happiness, so I wonder why atheists just hone in on the suffering.

So, the messengers say that god exists, and the messengers say true things because the messengers are the true messengers of god, and god exists and is good because the messengers say so. Therefore god is good and just and anything that seems evil and unfair is my fault for having a weak, flawed mind.

Can you see that you're using circular reasoning to formulate all of your responses? Do you understand that I could instead use circular reasoning to justify the existence of an evil god, or no god, or any kind of god, and I would be on exactly the same rational footing as you are, namely relying on a logical fallacy with no accompanying evidence?

This is exactly why my standard of evidence is any reliable way to differentiate imaginary ideas from ideas that correspond to reality. Your arguments and method specifically fail that standard. There is no reason to think your beliefs are true rather than imaginary, apart from you personally preferring one baseless self-validating circular argument rather than another.

 

[Bird123]

The premise of my thread is to debate the questions posted below, and my debate thread is open for anyone to answer, Christian or non-Christian alike. Answer yes or no to the questions, and then substantiate your answer. Christians should note that quoting scriptures isn't a convincing argument, because the bible has ample examples of God either directly killing people and ordering the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including killing women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3). For instance, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17).

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

Please take all of these examples into consideration while deciding how you will answer the questions. Please be civil in your replies, and absolutely no name-calling or disparaging remarks about the people who believe differently than you.

I look forward to the replies. Thank you, in advance, for answering the questions.

Sgt. Pepper

A well rounded education must include all choices. Is a choice evil or good? Each person will discover that for themselves.

God returns our actions and choices back to us so that we might Discover what those actions and choices really mean. We will Discover what the best choices really are. This time-based causal universe is perfect for that.

Many people do choose some mighty hard lessons for themselves. On the other hand, can one really acquire understanding without making some of those bad choices? I think not!!

In a multilevel classroom, one sees others learning lessons one has already learned. Is this a reason to hate, condemn, and label them as evil?? Maybe it's time to work at solving the real problems!!

Is God a merciful and loving God? God has fixed it all ahead of time. No matter what happens. We are all eternal.

On the path to Great wisdom and perfection, one can be blind to so very much. In time and with enough lessons, one will Discover what the Best answers really are. One will be able to create a Heavenly state for one and those around one. One will learn to Love Unconditionally?

Free choice is an important part. Without free choice one will do the opposite as soon as one is free to choose. Unlike mankind, God is at a Higher Level. God will never intimidate or coerce your choices in any way. Feel free to choose what it is you want to learn. It really is in your hands.

So many people do not understand God at all. People think this world, universe, and ourselves is for God. These things were all created for us. God is Unconditional.

Is God loving and merciful? Between our physical lives we go to God and experience God's Unconditional Love. It is a Love that heals all hurt. It is a Love that is so complete and feels so good one would do anything for it.

Yes, God loves us all to teach us great wisdom to acquire the knowledge to become that Heavenly state God is. The genius is that it is all being done through our free will. The closer one reaches that goal; the more one will really Understand.

Perhaps, we should all just muddle through learning the lessons, working at solving the problems, and help lead others along the way.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Sheldon]

The premise of my thread is to debate the questions posted below, and my debate thread is open for anyone to answer, Christian or non-Christian alike. Answer yes or no to the questions, and then substantiate your answer. Christians should note that quoting scriptures isn't a convincing argument, because the bible has ample examples of God either directly killing people and ordering the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including killing women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3). For instance, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17).

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

Please take all of these examples into consideration while deciding how you will answer the questions. Please be civil in your replies, and absolutely no name-calling or disparaging remarks about the people who believe differently than you.

I look forward to the replies. Thank you, in advance, for answering the questions.

Sgt. Pepper

"
Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God?"

Given that unnecessary suffering is ubiquitous, then prima facie I'd say that I do not believe so. Though of course the answer would I suppose depend on how you defined a deity. Whether arbitrarily defining a deity with characteristics that don't obviously contradict reality, is a justifiable reason to believe it is extant, is another matter of course. Again my personal view is that without any objective evidence, I cannot reasonably believe any claim.

 

[firedragon]

The premise of my thread is to debate the questions posted below, and my debate thread is open for anyone to answer, Christian or non-Christian alike. Answer yes or no to the questions, and then substantiate your answer. Christians should note that quoting scriptures isn't a convincing argument, because the bible has ample examples of God either directly killing people and ordering the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including killing women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3). For instance, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17).

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

Please take all of these examples into consideration while deciding how you will answer the questions. Please be civil in your replies, and absolutely no name-calling or disparaging remarks about the people who believe differently than you.

I look forward to the replies. Thank you, in advance, for answering the questions.

Sgt. Pepper

1. Loving
2. Merciful

Are they the only attributes of God? What are the other ones? Why pick only these two to make probably the most famous atheistic apologetic in the world today?

 

[Trailblazer]

So, the messengers say that god exists, and the messengers say true things because the messengers are the true messengers of god, and god exists and is good because the messengers say so. Therefore god is good and just and anything that seems evil and unfair is my fault for having a weak, flawed mind.

Can you see that you're using circular reasoning to formulate all of your responses? Do you understand that I could instead use circular reasoning to justify the existence of an evil god, or no god, or any kind of god, and I would be on exactly the same rational footing as you are, namely relying on a logical fallacy with no accompanying evidence?

This is exactly why my standard of evidence is any reliable way to differentiate imaginary ideas from ideas that correspond to reality. Your arguments and method specifically fail that standard. There is no reason to think your beliefs are true rather than imaginary, apart from you personally preferring one baseless self-validating circular argument rather than another.

But that is not my argument.

This is what I believe...
So, the messengers say that god exists, and the messengers say true things because the messengers are the true messengers of god,

That is not what I believe...
and god exists and is good because the messengers say so. Therefore god is good and just and anything that seems evil and unfair is my fault for having a weak, flawed mind.

A good God does not exist because the Messengers say so. A good God exists because a good God exists. The Messengers say that God is good because that is what was revealed to them by God. The Messengers knew what God was and therefore God is good and just and anything that seems evil and unfair to humans is just an ego projection of humans.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

1. Loving
2. Merciful

Are they the only attributes of God? What are the other ones? Why pick only these two to make probably the most famous atheistic apologetic in the world today?

I chose these two attributes because they are the most championed by the Christians I either know personally or I've conversed with while I was a member of a couple of Christian boards. And whenever these Christians were confronted with the examples I've given in my prior posts or with similar examples, their initial inclination was to blame the devil or blame sin and fallen man.

Furthermore, when these Christians were confronted with Isaiah 45:7, they either ignored this verse or they immediately dismissed it out of hand as an incorrect and mistaken interpretation of the verse. Most of these Christians loved to tell me that God loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life, not knowing that I suffered through a living hell of abuse while I was growing up.

I tried to explain my life of abuse to a pastor once and his response to me was that I'm a cursed soul, God obviously hates me and is punishing me for the sins of my biological parents. Meanwhile, this pastor continuously insisted that God is loving and merciful.

 

[firedragon]

I chose these two attributes because they are the most championed by the Christians I either know personally or I've conversed with while I was a member of a couple of Christian boards. And whenever these Christians were confronted with the examples I've given in my prior posts or with similar examples, their initial inclination was to blame the devil or blame sin and fallen man.

Furthermore, when these Christians were confronted with Isaiah 45:7, they either ignored this verse or they immediately dismissed it out of hand as an incorrect and mistaken interpretation of the verse. Most of these Christians loved to tell me that God loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life, not knowing that I suffered through a living hell of abuse while I was growing up.

I tried to explain my life of abuse to a pastor once and his response to me was that I'm a cursed soul, God obviously hates me and is punishing me for the sins of my biological parents. Meanwhile, this pastor continuously insisted that God is loving and merciful.

See, you should not typically be going with what is "championed by people". Go with theology if your aim is to debunk theology. Understand the whole thing. Not just two things repeated by people like parrots.

 

[Trailblazer]

Furthermore, when these Christians were confronted with Isaiah 45:7, they either ignored this verse or they immediately dismissed it out of hand as an incorrect and mistaken interpretation of the verse.

Why am I not surprised?

Most of these Christians loved to tell me that God loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life, not knowing that I suffered through a living hell of abuse while I was growing up.

Don't Christians always say that?

I tried to explain my life of abuse to a pastor once and his response to me was that I'm a cursed soul, God obviously hates me and is punishing me for the sins of my biological parents. Meanwhile, this pastor continuously insisted that God is loving and merciful.

That's just terrible, not to mention hypocritical!

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

The premise of my thread is to debate the questions posted below, and my debate thread is open for anyone to answer, Christian or non-Christian alike. Answer yes or no to the questions, and then substantiate your answer. Christians should note that quoting scriptures isn't a convincing argument, because the bible has ample examples of God either directly killing people and ordering the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including killing women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3). For instance, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17).

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

Please take all of these examples into consideration while deciding how you will answer the questions. Please be civil in your replies, and absolutely no name-calling or disparaging remarks about the people who believe differently than you.

I look forward to the replies. Thank you, in advance, for answering the questions.

Sgt. Pepper

1) No. But A loving, merciful God would create disaster.
Because my faith is Christ centric, also holding to the definition of a material God as opposed to a immaterial God as most trinitarian conceptualist would believe, I find myself holding to the NIV translation of 'evil' as "disaster" in Isaiah 45, rather than the 'evil' King James Version in this instance. With a material God (created by matter as opposed to self created 'divine energy') I do not believe that God created evil, himself holding to the standard of only pure good or not evil. Evil is produced or created either as a bi product or a foreign introduction of eternal intelligence in which all matter is influenced. We must assume that God has the option of evil based on his composition of matter, in which he is affected by, however is able to choose to forever to do and be good, lest He forever cease to be God.

Based on this definition, to answer your first question When God interacts with His creations, he has the right to cause Natural Disasters such as floods, pestilence, angelic death, and any other disasters that will be used ultimately to persuade the surviving masses that 1) God don't play with wickedness 2) God can give and take how he sees fit 3) Living in Sin is far worse than death in an Eternal perspective. P.S. Let God be the Judge, not man to decide who does the killing. Killing is a Big no no and pretending to be God and Judge in his behalf is following Satan and not God.

Another important definition that is typically rejected by our neighboring Christians is that we believe God's love is not unconditional. Although we still believe He possesses a perfect and infinite love we do not believe He loves everyone regardless of what they do. Ergo, we do not believe He currently loves Satan for his rebellion to His work, nor do we believe he loves any followers that through deceit and bear false witness against their neighbor on the grounds that they begin to Hate God and work against his purpose, which is ultimately to give everyone a chance to be as He is. Infinitely Pure and Good as well.

The next point is mercy. We refer to God as the Righteous Judge, He has to be just and merciful. An awful Judge would just be letting every murderer or rapist off the hook if he is purely merciful. This would not protect the world from evil, but almost encourage it. I think of movies like the 'Purge' where it is legal to do whatever you want, but it ends up the worst thing for mankind. Another awful Judge would be someone who shows absolutely no mercy, which mean everyone goes to jail if they go one mile over the speed limit ever in their existence. This would be extremely unrealistic expectations to place on anyone. When we say merciful in this context of the Bible, we mean that he evaluates the decisions using His Omniscient powers of judgement and determines the least negative option while still keeping his promises to his Believers as well as every other creation that 'needed to be completely wiped off of Earth'. Is it evil to kill? Yes, except when the thing that you are removing is pronounced by God evil. Women and Children in these biblical settings of the Amalikites, may not have been necessarily evil but leaving them to live in the perspective of an omniscient being would have caused them to become evil in revenging their evil fathers and husbands deaths, being the best and only way to counter this according to our faith in God's omniscience and judgement.

Once we have truly evaluated God's rights as a creator to remove evil when and how He sees fit and understand his disassociation as the creator of evil, than the second question is almost answered in itself. God did not create nor predestine the Holocaust or any tragedy that had occurred in human and premortal existence. He did not encourage crime nor does he expect pure robotic obedience. He wants humans to chose for themselves. Whether they choose good or evil. If they choose good (follows the commandments) then they get to be with Him, If they choose evil than they don't.

Lastly, built into our souls exist a metaphorical moral compass. We are particularly sensitive when we perceive evil and when we experience good. Murder of innocent children. Evil. Someone giving you a compliment. Good. Lying to your spouse about another side relationship. Evil. Spending quality time teaching your children. Good. These are things that we feel even as children. We are sensitive to it. Mass slaughter in the Bible might go against this moral compass, but if you had a time machine and were given information that all the people were going to eventually kill you two months or days from now, regardless of whether you ran or fought back. Your compass needle would probably sway a different direction for self preservation. If it is a kill or be killed and you knew the other party was going to kill you, wouldn't you do whatever it takes to protect you and your people. As a righteous Judge, God had to inform them of what to do which was going to keep him from being a liar and from being just and merciful.

 

[MyM]

The premise of my thread is to debate the questions posted below, and my debate thread is open for anyone to answer, Christian or non-Christian alike. Answer yes or no to the questions, and then substantiate your answer. Christians should note that quoting scriptures isn't a convincing argument, because the bible has ample examples of God either directly killing people and ordering the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including killing women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3). For instance, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17).

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

Please take all of these examples into consideration while deciding how you will answer the questions. Please be civil in your replies, and absolutely no name-calling or disparaging remarks about the people who believe differently than you.

I look forward to the replies. Thank you, in advance, for answering the questions.

Sgt. Pepper

Good Morning,

Ok, first of all, I do believe in God and I do believe in His Love and I do believe in his mercy.

The question shouldn't be why would a loving God be merciful and create evil it should ask are we to be able to question God?

To me, there is a difference between mercy and love. Love is a psychological sickness and a cure. It mainly affects the mechanisms in the brain as it grows in strength and can affect one physically and mentally and can destroy or mend a being. Not everything good comes from love. To me, Mercy is a blessing whether be in good situations or bad.

Secondly, God can create what HE wants. Deep down who are we to ask God why? But in saying that I will give you an example.
If a teacher were to give you an exam and tells you that you are needing to study before the time you have it. The teacher he or she gives you the preparations, tells you what is going to be on the exam, tells you how to study for it and gives you a length of time to prepare for it. The time comes for the test, one passes and one fails. Would it be fair if the teacher who got the failing grade- rewards while the other who studied really hard to pass, did the correct way of passing the exam be equal to that who did nothing? Would that be an honest teacher?
In saying this, God makes His own way. He tests, he examines and he already knows who will pass and who will fail since he is the All-Knowing, All-wise.

Throughout history, we know that that religion has not been that loving. It always boils down to its people, the sinners. We have seen wars stem from it-through people's own whims and ignorance.

The religion isn't the problem. God isn't the problem. The people are the problem. They blame God for bad things happening to them. We know in Islam that Allah says, “And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much” [al-Shoora 42:30] Prophet Mohammad said,
“Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah”, i.e., by the grace, bounty, kindness and mercy of Allah. but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself”. God is the All Knowing, the Most Merciful an he said His mercy is more than his wrath.

So Allah, the Just (by the way that is one of his names -AlAdl) He is the most Just and if He sees fit to make Hell for the ones who disbelieve that is His prerogative. They have ample time to study before they will be judged. So in the end, when they stand in front of their Creator, they will have no excuse. They will be punished. Who said that Allah is supposed to love all his creations? He has shown throughout time what he has done. His punishments are severe.

The main reason we are put on this earth is to worship Him alone. We are not ascribe partners unto Him.

He created the jinn(Iblis the main jinn) satan and gave him temporary respite in this world(he and his army) and he told him that you will not be able to persuade the believers. For Iblis was an arrogant jinn and did not do what Allah wanted and told Allah he will make his creation disbelieve in him. But Allah told him he would not be able to do that with the ones who believe in him.

It is all part of God's plan. He made his creation, he can do what he sees fit with it.

Men are arrogant, men try to outsmart the one who created them. It will never work.





I wasn't finished I had a meeting lol but it sent anyways. lol

 

[loverofhumanity]

The premise of my thread is to debate the questions posted below, and my debate thread is open for anyone to answer, Christian or non-Christian alike. Answer yes or no to the questions, and then substantiate your answer. Christians should note that quoting scriptures isn't a convincing argument, because the bible has ample examples of God either directly killing people and ordering the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including killing women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3). For instance, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17).

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

Please take all of these examples into consideration while deciding how you will answer the questions. Please be civil in your replies, and absolutely no name-calling or disparaging remarks about the people who believe differently than you.

I look forward to the replies. Thank you, in advance, for answering the questions.

Sgt. Pepper

The verses you quote are not Divine Revelation but narratives written after Moses by an unknown author. The Torah was revealed by God to Moses and the Books according to the Baha’i Writings are:

Genesis , Exodus , Leviticus , Numbers , Deuteronomy

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.

the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament.

We have no way of substantiating the stories of the Old Testament other than references to them in our own teachings

Now to the topic of man made catastrophes and calamities. God teaches us in all religions to love one another. Obedience to this law would have prevented things like the world wars, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, world poverty, murders, rapes, terrorism, domestic violence, sexual abuse and disease has its foundation in bad hygiene. The Prophets have always taught cleanliness and purity.

As to Isaiah 45:7

God created the reward/punishment system of this world so you drink poison you die, you exercise and eat good your health increases. The same system exists, as explained above. God has put in place a system whereby loving one another creates happiness, love and brotherhood whereas hatred and prejudice causes wars, holocausts and murders etc. But the choice is ours alone to love or to hate, to be united or to go to war or to kill.

God does not cause these things to happen, it’s our choices which cause these things.

God wants nothing more than for us to turn to Him and love one another but does not force us. We make our bed we sleep in it.

 

[F1fan]

It's interesting reading responses by deeply fervent believers because it is difficult to offer a retort to their statements from a factual and rational approach. Their responses are fully dogmatic and simply give a narrative from the religious perspective. A Mormon says one thing, a Muslim says another with different details. The question is why are fervent believers presenting such different narratives IF they are correct?

Anyone can repeat dogma. This doesn't argue anything. It doesn't offer a reasoned and factual defense to why a believer thinks a God is loving, merciful, just, moral, caring, etc.

I suspect one major reason a theist will just repeat a dogmatic viewpoint is because they have no personal reasoning to defend their beliefs. They have become agents for religious dogma and have surrendered their intellect to the meaning this framework offers them. This is why religions can be dangerous.

 

[F1fan]

As to Isaiah 45:7

God created the reward/punishment system of this world so you drink poison you die, you exercise and eat good your health increases. The same system exists, as explained above. God has put in place a system whereby loving one another creates happiness, love and brotherhood whereas hatred and prejudice causes wars, holocausts and murders etc. But the choice is ours alone to love or to hate, to be united or to go to war or to kill.

God does not cause these things to happen, it’s our choices which cause these things.

God wants nothing more than for us to turn to Him and love one another but does not force us. We make our bed we sleep in it.

Well, this is not believable.

It's more like a scenario where little Johnny and his friends were playing inn the field and they all chewed on a plant, and they all died the next day. How does a primitive people cope with this tragedy? Well they say it was a message from God for the people to not eat that plant. This was the lesson sent by God, and the leaders decided to make this a rule sent by God: don't eat this plant. Or shellfish. Or wear mixed fibers. Or whatever, God says so.

Reward/punishment? No. Humans just live in an environment that isn't designed, especially not for them, and some die in the lottery of life.

If theists assert that God exists and rules over all we observe, then God is certainly indifferent to humans, even if an infant. We humans have assigned the best qualities of humanity onto various ideas of Gods, and I would think it better if we just accept that some of us are good, and some humans are bad, and we deal with the natural qualities as they are. Belief in Gods just adds confusion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well, this is not believable.

It's more like a scenario where little Johnny and his friends were playing inn the field and they all chewed on a plant, and they all died the next day. How does a primitive people cope with this tragedy? Well they say it was a message from God for the people to not eat that plant. This was the lesson sent by God, and the leaders decided to make this a rule sent by God: don't eat this plant. Or shellfish. Or wear mixed fibers. Or whatever, God says so.

Reward/punishment? No. Humans just live in an environment that isn't designed, especially not for them, and some die in the lottery of life.

If theists assert that God exists and rules over all we observe, then God is certainly indifferent to humans, even if an infant. We humans have assigned the best qualities of humanity onto various ideas of Gods, and I would think it better if we just accept that some of us are good, and some humans are bad, and we deal with the natural qualities as they are. Belief in Gods just adds confusion.

Clearly we die no matter how. Part of our temporary life here is to eat, sleep and die. But I believe just like we were developing our arms, legs, eyes and brain in the womb before we entered this world, so too, what we learn here develops and prepares us for the next stage in our evolution after passing from this world.

Injustices will be compensated for there and still a reward and punishment system exists because we are all accountable for our actions here.

Things like accidents, God’s Mercy is vast and it doesn’t matter if we don’t believe it - just like if you told a child in its mothers womb that a new world awaited it, it would scoff and ridicule such an assertion.

 

[F1fan]

Clearly we die no matter how. Part of our temporary life here is to eat, sleep and die.

Just like the squirrels in our neighborhoods.

But I believe just like we were developing our arms, legs, eyes and brain in the womb before we entered this world, so too, what we learn here develops and prepares us for the next stage in our evolution after passing from this world.

Just like the squirrels in our neighborhoods.

Injustices will be compensated for there and still a reward and punishment system exists because we are all accountable for our actions here.

Due to our justice system, not in nature. Many squirrels will long long lives and die natural deaths while some human infants will die soon after birth. Let's try to explain this if humans are special, spiritual beings. Let's use facts, not religious tradition, or lore, or dogma, or belief.

Things like accidents, God’s Mercy is vast and it doesn’t matter if we don’t believe it - just like if you told a child in its mothers womb that a new world awaited it, it would scoff and ridicule such an assertion.

When a child is born with cancer, suffers through years of agony in treatment, but dies nonetheless, how do you reconcile the belief of "God's mercy"? Could it be that some traditional religious beliefs are not consistent with reality?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Just like the squirrels in our neighborhoods.


Just like the squirrels in our neighborhoods.


Due to our justice system, not in nature. Many squirrels will long long lives and die natural deaths while some human infants will die soon after birth. Let's try to explain this if humans are special, spiritual beings. Let's use facts, not religious tradition, or lore, or dogma, or belief.


When a child is born with cancer, suffers through years of agony in treatment, but dies nonetheless, how do you reconcile the belief of "God's mercy"? Could it be that some traditional religious beliefs are not consistent with reality?

These children abide under the shadow of the Divine Providence, and, as they have committed no sin and are unsullied by the defilements of the world of nature, they will become the manifestations of divine bounty and the glances of the eye of divine mercy will be directed towards them. (Baha’i Writings)