Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God?

[F1fan]

These children abide under the shadow of the Divine Providence, and, as they have committed no sin and are unsullied by the defilements of the world of nature, they will become the manifestations of divine bounty and the glances of the eye of divine mercy will be directed towards them. (Baha’i Writings)

This is dogma, not a factual response. This does not lead a rational mind to the same conclusion.

So why believe in the dogma that guides your thinking? Offer facts and an objective, rational process.

 

[MyM]

It's interesting reading responses by deeply fervent believers because it is difficult to offer a retort to their statements from a factual and rational approach. Their responses are fully dogmatic and simply give a narrative from the religious perspective. A Mormon says one thing, a Muslim says another with different details. The question is why are fervent believers presenting such different narratives IF they are correct?

Anyone can repeat dogma. This doesn't argue anything. It doesn't offer a reasoned and factual defense to why a believer thinks a God is loving, merciful, just, moral, caring, etc.

I suspect one major reason a theist will just repeat a dogmatic viewpoint is because they have no personal reasoning to defend their beliefs. They have become agents for religious dogma and have surrendered their intellect to the meaning this framework offers them. This is why religions can be dangerous.

What else do you want? We say what we believe, give our reasons, but what kind of reason would you display in your belief? What I posted was very reasonable and all you have to do is counter it. why not?

 

[F1fan]

What else do you want?

Facts, objectivity, and a reasoned response. Citing dogmas that not only have no factual basis, but are often contrary to facts, does not resonate with the intellectual capacity of the average human.

Anyone can say "I believe X" and walk away. Who cares what a person believes. We want to know WHY a person believes X. How did they end up with that belief versus some other belief Y, or belief Z, or an objective and factual conclusion?

We say what we believe, give our reasons, but what kind of reason would you display in your belief?

We don't see reasons. A person saying "God demands it" is not a reason, that is part of the dogma. We are asking why do you as an individual with some intellectual capacity has decided X is true at all. We do see some theists who have never asked themselves why they believe what they do, they are just trapped in a cycle of belief where there is no stepping aside and examining it.

What I posted was very reasonable and all you have to do is counter it. why not?

Why is what you posted rational? Be sure to use facts. When I say facts, I don't mean quoting Bible texts (besides, which version of Bible is it, and why that one?). I mean if you quote a Bible text explain why your interpretation is objectively true and consistent with what we observe of reality.

 

[F1fan]

These children abide under the shadow of the Divine Providence, and, as they have committed no sin and are unsullied by the defilements of the world of nature, they will become the manifestations of divine bounty and the glances of the eye of divine mercy will be directed towards them. (Baha’i Writings)

So, if you were God would you create a world where little children were born with genetic defects, and suffered painful illnesses and often die?

I'm asking YOU what YOU would do. I'm not asking you to try to come up with an answer to defend Baha'i beliefs. Would YOU create a world where children suffer and die? Would that be your choice? If so, explain your intention and purpose to put children through that pain.

 

[Jack11]

I found the conversation of Moses with God interesting God absolutely hated the Israelite's he couldn't stand them - Moses had to talk God out of killing them all more than once. God even offer to kill them all and start fresh with Moses. What did God call them - a stiff neck people. He marched them around the desert until every last one of them died and then even Moses had to pay the price and was denied the promised land.

I always wondered why God did this but i think it was because he did not want a nation of slaves which is what they were when they left Egypt so he marched them around the desert until that generation was completely gone and then he brought them to the promised land.

 

[Clara Tea]

The premise of my thread is to debate the questions posted below, and my debate thread is open for anyone to answer, Christian or non-Christian alike. Answer yes or no to the questions, and then substantiate your answer. Christians should note that quoting scriptures isn't a convincing argument, because the bible has ample examples of God either directly killing people and ordering the Israelites to wipe out entire nations, including killing women, children, and infants (1 Samuel 15:3). For instance, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2; Deuteronomy 25:17).

First question: Why would a loving, merciful God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Second Question (Part 1, 2, and 3): Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God in light of the Holocaust and in light of every other inhumane atrocity and tragedy in human history? What about the rampant rate of murder, sexual assault, abuse, starvation, and deadly diseases and viruses? Are all of these examples that I provided compatible with the belief in a loving, merciful God?

Please take all of these examples into consideration while deciding how you will answer the questions. Please be civil in your replies, and absolutely no name-calling or disparaging remarks about the people who believe differently than you.

I look forward to the replies. Thank you, in advance, for answering the questions.

Sgt. Pepper

God didn't command Israelites to wipe out the Amalikites. Moses asked Joshua to choose men to fight Amalek (traditional enemy of Israelites), while Moses went to a hill to play with God's rod until his hands were tired.

Exodus 9: Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

Eminent scientist, Neil De Grasse Tyson, said that we are in a virtual world (computer simulation), so what we perceive to be real (evil, pain, murder, etc.), is not real.

So, it is okay that we can't prove an imaginary God as long as we are also imaginary.

 

[Clara Tea]

First off, I do not believe that God created evil, I think that was a bad translation. Evil means profoundly immoral and wicked and it only applies to humans and their behavior.

Look at all the other translations below. What I think this means is that God sends us good times and bad times, God brings prosperity and creates disasters. I think that the reason God does this is to test our faith and also because suffering helps us grow spiritually.

Most people have more good times than bad times so they have something to thank God for but if life was always good times we would never be challenged and grow spiritually. Those people who have suffered most in life have the most character.

KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.

ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NIV
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

NKJV
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’

NLV
I make light and I make darkness. I bring good and I make trouble. I am the Lord Who does all these things.

NLT
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

NRSV
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things.

I believe these atrocities are all caused by humans, not by God. The most you can say, and many atheists say this, is that God should not allow these things to happen or as some atheists say God should intervene. From my belief perspective this is untenable because God is not Superman. That is what it would amount to if God intervened every time something “bad” was about to happen. It would upset the order in the world which is based upon free will choices.

I think a more useful question is why God created a world such as this in which He knew so many people would suffer, often through no fault of their own. Again, I think that the reason God created a material world is to test our faith and also because suffering helps us grow spiritually.

God makes peace and creates calamity. I create Clara Tea, not clam tea.

 

[Clara Tea]

No, I am not arguing that at all. Why would God be to blame if He was all-powerful? Just because God is all-powerful that does not mean God is obligated to use His power to do things that atheists think He should do. An all-powerful God only does what He chooses to do, not what people want Him to do. Try to think about why.

No, I am not saying that either. Nothing is too hard for an all-powerful and all-knowing God. God wanted to design the world this way or it would not be this way.

God does not want to put an end to all suffering, is that hard to understand? God is all-knowing so God knows more than you since you are not all-knowing so God knows what is in the best interest of humans.

God's purpose for humans is not to make sure they are happy all the time. This short life is a preparation for the next life, which is forever. If we play our cards right here there will be no more suffering in the next life, only joy and gladness.

Again, God could have done that if He wanted to, but the fact that this is not what we see tells us that is not what God chose to do. We either accept that or remain in torment over it or we are apathetic about it. I don't like suffering any more than you do, especially because most of my life has been suffering, but I finally decided to try to make peace with it.

The only way we can ever know anything about God is through the Messengers of God. The reason I believe God is good and loving is because of what the Messengers said. If I did not have scriptures I might think like you because I would look at the world and see all the suffering. Of course there is a lot of good in the world too, a lot of happiness, so I wonder why atheists just hone in on the suffering.

Atheists don't hone in on the suffering. Theists assert that God is love and peace, and atheists mention that there is also suffering, and wonder why a loving God would allow it.

 

[F1fan]

Atheists don't hone in on the suffering. Theists assert that God is love and peace, and atheists mention that there is also suffering, and wonder why a loving God would allow it.

Not only allow it, but deliberately create it. And not just as a punishment to the deserving, but also arbitrarily to the innocent as well.

If a theist insists their God is the creator, and caused all things that we observe happening, then it has to be accountable for it.

If we saw a consistently karmic system, where the more wrong a person commits the more hardships befall them, then that would indicate a moral universe at work, and all people would have to think through their decisions.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Not only allow it, but deliberately create it. And not just as a punishment to the deserving, but also arbitrarily to the innocent as well.

If a theist insists their God is the creator, and caused all things that we observe happening, then it has to be accountable for it.

If we saw a consistently karmic system, where the more wrong a person commits the more hardships befall them, then that would indicate a moral universe at work, and all people would have to think through their decisions.

I've yet to meet one theist (Christian, Muslim, Baha'i) who will blame God for the fallen condition of the world. Devout theists will blame fallen man or Satan, but they absolutely refuse to blame God. They will blame the creation (mankind or Satan), but they refuse to blame the creator (God). They won't blame the all-powerful, all-knowing God, who has the power to stop the suffering. Devout theists will either ignore or dismiss Isaiah 45:7 where God admits that he creates disasters, calamity, makes trouble, and brings bad times.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is dogma, not a factual response. This does not lead a rational mind to the same conclusion.

So why believe in the dogma that guides your thinking? Offer facts and an objective, rational process.

It’s not dogma if it comes from God and His Prophets.

 

[ppp]

It’s not dogma if it comes from God and His Prophets.

Um. That's exactly what stuff that supposedly comes gods and prophets is.

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I've yet to meet one theist (Christian or Muslim) who will blame God for the fallen condition of the world. Devout theists will initially blame fallen man or the devil, but they absolutely refuse to blame God. They will blame the creation (mankind or Satan), but they refuse to blame the creator (God). They refuse to blame the all-powerful, all-knowing God, who has the ultimate power to stop the suffering.

Its by man’s choice that we fight wars and kill. Nothing to do with God. God gave us freedom of choice and it’s us that make the good or bad choices not God. God does not force us to believe or obey Him. In all religions He teaches us to love and respect each other. If we did that we would have a wonderful world. We choose not to so we make our bed then we sleep in it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Atheists don't hone in on the suffering. Theists assert that God is love and peace, and atheists mention that there is also suffering, and wonder why a loving God would allow it.

It is not only atheists who wonder why a loving God would allow suffering, I also wonder.

 

[F1fan]

I've yet to meet one theist (Christian or Muslim) who will blame God for the fallen condition of the world. Devout theists will blame fallen man or Satan, but they absolutely refuse to blame God. They will blame the creation (mankind or Satan), but they refuse to blame the creator (God). They won't blame the all-powerful, all-knowing God, who has the ultimate power to stop the suffering. Devout theists will either ignore or dismiss Isaiah 45:7 where God admits that he creates disasters, calamity, makes trouble, and brings bad times.

Right. They totally ignore that God, the creator, knew exactly what would happen as it created the world and humans. God knew A&E would fail their challenge as they were designed to fail. God even put the serpent in the Garden to ensure they would fail.

If God really wanted A&E to be obedient people it could have created them with adequate wisdom and discipline to resist temptation. But it didn't.

 

[F1fan]

It is not only atheists who wonder why a loving God would allow suffering, I also wonder.

Could be incorrect belief.

 

[F1fan]

It’s not dogma if it comes from God and His Prophets.

Gods aren't known to exist, and prophets are not known to be credible. So we cannot just take the word of believers like yourself. This is why reason is a very useful tool to sort out what is plausible, or likely true, or true, or improbable, or false.

You state your fervent belief in a set of religious ideas that are not fact-based, well, that's dogma.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've yet to meet one theist (Christian or Muslim) who will blame God for the fallen condition of the world. Devout theists will blame fallen man or the devil, but they absolutely refuse to blame God.

I do not blame God for the fallen condition of the world because God has nothing to do with it. I also do not blame the devil because I do not believe there is a devil. I blame who is responsible and it is humans who are responsible for evil acts, not God. Men break the Laws of God and that is why there is evil in the world. It is as simple as that.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Right. They totally ignore that God, the creator, knew exactly what would happen as it created the world and humans. God knew A&E would fail their challenge as they were designed to fail. God even put the serpent in the Garden to ensure they would fail.

If God really wanted A&E to be obedient people it could have created them with adequate wisdom and discipline to resist temptation. But it didn't.

God got furiously angry towards mankind for behaving exactly the way he knew they would turn out, and he went totally psychotic by killing every living creature on Earth in a global flood, except for Noah and his family. And instead of learning from his atrocious genocidal mistake, he regrets killing off humanity and allows mankind to flourish upon the Earth again.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Um. That's exactly what stuff that supposedly comes gods and prophets is.

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

This is where your bias is speaking. You are speaking that way because you do not believe there is an All Knowing Being Who possesses true knowledge. But what if you’re wrong and there is such a God?

.