Is it shocking that Pelosi would berate white males?

[Kangaroo Feathers]

let's look at an overall measure

Hmm People trust Trump more than Hillary.
Donald Trump Leads Hillary Clinton on Trustworthiness: Poll
The Republican presidential nominee leads his Democratic rival on honesty and trustworthiness by eight points in a Washington Post-ABC News poll, which found 46% of likely voters saying Trump is more honest and deserving of trust.

What the heck does that have to do with the subject??

 

[Falvlun]

@whirlingmerc is offended Nancy Pelosi mentioned 5 white guys dictating DACA.

Pelosi: 'Five white guys' leading DACA talks should open a 'hamburger stand'

Thanks for actually providing th context since the OP apparently couldn’t be bothered.

““The five white guys I call them, you know," Pelosi said at her weekly news conference. "Are they going to open a hamburger stand next or what?” Pelosi said, complaining that minority members of Congress were not involved in deciding the fate of Dreamers.”

This is not berating. It’s a pretty mild criticism pointing out that it’s a group of people who historically have always held all the power (white males) deciding things for people who historically don’t (brown people).

 

[Falvlun]

What do you think will happen if a white male declared that he's proud to be a white male?

People would roll their eyes (if they were of the liberal persuasion) or they would support the comment (if they were of the conservative bent).

I’m in the “roll your eyes” camp. There isn’t inherently anything to be proud about in regards to your gender or skin color. You can like who you are; but why be proud that you were born with a certain phenotype? That’s just silly.

But wait! You say. What about “black pride” or “insert other minority” here? Here’s the thing: when a minority says that they are proud to be their minority, what theyre really pushing back against is the societal idea that they are somehow worth less. Society has said “black isn’t good” so they push back by saying “yes it is!”. White people don’t need to do that because society is always enforcing the idea that white is good.

There is also very much a sense of pride in perseverance. “Black Pride” etc, is less about pride in the physical skin color, but pride in the idea that they’ve survived, they’ve flourished, despite the odds stacked against them because of their skin color.

People who ask why they can’t have white pride are completely missing the point of minority pride. They either trivialize it to being literally just about pride in skin color (which is silly) or worse, they think that their skin color is something we should actually be prideful about (which leads to unearned feelings of superiority).

 

[suncowiam]

Context is important.

I agree context is definitely most important but I've already has discussions with some here that feels white culture does not exist and that one should not have any reason to celebrate white culture. Ironically, they professed they were white.

IMO, if minorities can celebrate their culture and race, then so can Caucasians. If females can the so can males. Today's white males should not be paying for the crimes of a generational past.

 

[suncowiam]

People would roll their eyes (if they were of the liberal persuasion) or they would support the comment (if they were of the conservative bent).

I’m in the “roll your eyes” camp. There isn’t inherently anything to be proud about in regards to your gender or skin color. You can like who you are; but why be proud that you were born with a certain phenotype? That’s just silly.

But wait! You say. What about “black pride” or “insert other minority” here? Here’s the thing: when a minority says that they are proud to be their minority, what theyre really pushing back against is the societal idea that they are somehow worth less. Society has said “black isn’t good” so they push back by saying “yes it is!”. White people don’t need to do that because society is always enforcing the idea that white is good.

There is also very much a sense of pride in perseverance. “Black Pride” etc, is less about pride in the physical skin color, but pride in the idea that they’ve survived, they’ve flourished, despite the odds stacked against them because of their skin color.

People who ask why they can’t have white pride are completely missing the point of minority pride. They either trivialize it to being literally just about pride in skin color (which is silly) or worse, they think that their skin color is something we should actually be prideful about (which leads to unearned feelings of superiority).

Whites can feel the same way. They can feel "less" as you suggest.

I'm a minority and I celebrate my immigrant culture. Culture is personally defined. If I want to celebrate it or be proud of it, that is my choice. So I say, if whites want to be proud and celebrate their culture of choice then it's their perogative.

It's simply a double standard based on history that most current generation are not a part of.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Abuse of the legal system is abuse. Hillary had 1000 illegal FBI files even when Bill was president. She just has a problematic record and telling the truth and honesty is not a Clinton strong point

The enough is enough bar was passed long ago with the public regarding Hillary
Trump? he should clean up his act regarding undiplomatic talk and he would be more effective
If Hillary was going to be honest she could have come clean regarding the servers... she didn't

 

[Falvlun]

Whites can feel the same way. They can feel "less" as you suggest.

I'm a minority and I celebrate my immigrant culture. Culture is personally defined. If I want to celebrate it or be proud of it, that is my choice. So I say, if whites want to be proud and celebrate their culture of choice then it's their perogative.

It's simply a double standard based on history that most current generation are not a part of.

I don’t think that “white” is a culture. As for actual cultures, like “Irish” or “polish” etc, yes, many white people do participate in and celebrate such without anyone batting an eye.

I agree that there could be times when white people could be in similar situations as the one I described in my post— where they are a downtrodden minority being told that their whiteness makes them less. But that’s generally not the context of “white pride”. It’s either being used as a snarky false equivalence that completely misses the point of minority pride movements, or it’s an assertion of superiority, ala white supremacy.

You seem to insinuate that the current generation of minorities are no longer experiencing racism that tells them that their blackness (or their homosexuality, or their femaleness, etc) makes them less of a person. I agree that racism and sexism was much more overt “back then” but the effects are certainly not eradicated.

 

[suncowiam]

I don’t think that “white” is a culture. As for actual cultures, like “Irish” or “polish” etc, yes, many white people do participate in and celebrate such without anyone batting an eye.

I agree that there could be times when white people could be in similar situations as the one I described in my post— where they are a downtrodden minority being told that their whiteness makes them less. But that’s generally not the context of “white pride”. It’s either being used as a snarky false equivalence that completely misses the point of minority pride movements, or it’s an assertion of superiority, ala white supremacy.

You seem to insinuate that the current generation of minorities are no longer experiencing racism that tells them that their blackness (or their homosexuality, or their femaleness, etc) makes them less of a person. I agree that racism and sexism was much more overt “back then” but the effects are certainly not eradicated.

Current generation of minorities do experience racism, and... So do whites. But it might not be for the same reasons as the past. Sure, we should learn from the past but I find it harmful to paint everything from the past.

I'm not denying there is a problem with race. I'm trying to highlight the actual root problems. If people assumes racism simply based on skin color of the offending person without all other contexts then we're not really solving anything. In my line of work, we have a term called "root cause." My assertion is that the root cause of racism or any other form of discrimination is due to double standards. When we allow double standards to exist in any form, then we are allowing discrimination. That is why I do not support double standards. If person regardless if his/her race, culture, sex, age can do something, then another person regardless of his/her race, culture, sex, age should be able to do the same exact thing. That is how we stop discrimination. Isn't that the fundamental definition of equality?

Concerning "White pride," you've learned through various negative occurrences that it is most likely due to white supremacy. In most cases, that probably is true. But... that is still unfair to other white populations that do believe in equality but want to be proud of their past, whatever they may consider as their past or culture. Let's not jump to conclusion that white pride is a racist term until we consider the entire context.

 

[Curious George]

My issue here is that she seems to imply that these white guys cannot represent non whites or females. If someone made a similar insinuation regarding someone who was not white or not male as incapable of representing whites or males, it would catch people's attention.

Such a statement implies that McCarthy for instance can only represent about 25% of his constituents. It also implied that 5 members of Congress would be ill-equipped to do their job because they were white and male. It was out of line and unprofessional for a Pelosi to make such a comment. It is pandering to race politics instead of making arguments.

It was bad form. There is no point in trying to make excuses for her behavior.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I agree context is definitely most important but I've already has discussions with some here that feels white culture does not exist and that one should not have any reason to celebrate white culture. Ironically, they professed they were white.

IMO, if minorities can celebrate their culture and race, then so can Caucasians. If females can the so can males. Today's white males should not be paying for the crimes of a generational past.

While I agree that everyone should be able to feel proud of and celebrate their culture, I'm still at a loss as to what any of this has to do with the OP.

 

[suncowiam]

While I agree that everyone should be able to feel proud of and celebrate their culture, I'm still at a loss as to what any of this has to do with the OP.

Is there really an OP given the sparse information.

The discussion branched off to something generally being true about white males causing discrimination to other races or sexes.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I would say no. It's just inconsistent

Why not? Everyone else does. Especially white women.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's not really a double standard. White men get to make decisions about women's health care with no women present. White men get to decide the fate of African American's with no African Americans around. Now we have a position where white men get to decide the fate of another group, with no one who has any stake in the issue being present. White men only make up a certain percentage of the population, but they are deciding most issues for everyone else who isn't them. I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't have any say, but rather they have too much of a say. And when it's exclusively them getting to decide what happens to other groups, it is too much of a say.

Yeah! down with Whitey!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Pointing out those things are going on isn't placing blame on white men or holding them accountable. It's doing nothing more than saying "there is something wrong with this picture" when it's a group of exclusively white men deciding an issue that they have no stake or claim in.

Aren't most issues decided by people who have no stake or claim in things?

I suppose color does make a difference after all and people are different to a point where you need to have somebody the right color.

To make decisions for people who have the same color skin. You can't have whitey you do that. Those people are incapable because they are white because they cannot simply represent anybody other than their own color.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah! down with Whitey!

If that's the conclusion you draw/infer from my post, mention that when the issue is one particular demograph who so frequently and exclusively gets to decide issue for groups they are not a part of, which is a problem because those the issues affect are not represented, then what am I supposed to do? Ask you if the decline of white hegemony frightens you?

 

[Falvlun]

Current generation of minorities do experience racism, and... So do whites. But it might not be for the same reasons as the past. Sure, we should learn from the past but I find it harmful to paint everything from the past.

If you agree that racism is still an ongoing problem, then that means we aren’t painting everything from the past, but current experience.

I'm not denying there is a problem with race. I'm trying to highlight the actual root problems. If people assumes racism simply based on skin color of the offending person without all other contexts then we're not really solving anything. In my line of work, we have a term called "root cause." My assertion is that the root cause of racism or any other form of discrimination is due to double standards. When we allow double standards to exist in any form, then we are allowing discrimination. That is why I do not support double standards. If person regardless if his/her race, culture, sex, age can do something, then another person regardless of his/her race, culture, sex, age should be able to do the same exact thing. That is how we stop discrimination. Isn't that the fundamental definition of equality?

I think your “double standard” theory as the root cause of racism to be an interesting one.

Upon reflection, I don’t think it’s the root cause but rather a symptom.

However, I disagree that criticism one party for “doing the exact same thing” is a double standard. Let me illustrate: if a toddler has an accident, we do not judge them the same as if an adult did it. And yet it would be the same exact thing. We do not punish killing someone in self defense or in war the same way we do pre-meditated murder. Both are the same action. If someone lies to protect someone else’s feelings (a white lie), we judge that differently than if someone lies to protect themselves.

In other words, context, motivation, and who performs an action often determine our response to it, despite the actions themselves being the same thing.

I believe that the motivation and context for minority pride movements are very different than that of those espousing “white pride”. If the motivation and context were the same, I would have no problem with someone saying they were proud to be white. I am not applying a double standard; I’m essentially saying that these are different actions based on the context and motivation.

Concerning "White pride," you've learned through various negative occurrences that it is most likely due to white supremacy. In most cases, that probably is true. But... that is still unfair to other white populations that do believe in equality but want to be proud of their past, whatever they may consider as their past or culture. Let's not jump to conclusion that white pride is a racist term until we consider the entire context.

Actually, racism wasn’t the first thing I thought when I saw Your original “what if” post. It’s usually, as when you posted it, meant as a counter point to minority pride movements, trying to draw an equivalence that just isn’t there. As noted before, pride in your skin color is a silly thing. “Black pride”, also as noted before, isn’t about pride in skin color: it’s about saying “I am proud of who I am despite people saying that I am a lesser person just because of my skin color.” It’s about affirming that they are worth just as much as anyone else.

As for white people being proud of their past and their culture, again, no one is stopping this. But it’s not about being “white”; there is no “white culture”. You are defending a possibility that just doesn’t exist. If someone is seriously talking about their pride in “white culture”, then they are most likely a white supremacist.

 

[suncowiam]

If you agree that racism is still an ongoing problem, then that means we aren’t painting everything from the past, but current experience.


I think your “double standard” theory as the root cause of racism to be an interesting one.

Upon reflection, I don’t think it’s the root cause but rather a symptom.

However, I disagree that criticism one party for “doing the exact same thing” is a double standard. Let me illustrate: if a toddler has an accident, we do not judge them the same as if an adult did it. And yet it would be the same exact thing. We do not punish killing someone in self defense or in war the same way we do pre-meditated murder. Both are the same action. If someone lies to protect someone else’s feelings (a white lie), we judge that differently than if someone lies to protect themselves.

In other words, context, motivation, and who performs an action often determine our response to it, despite the actions themselves being the same thing.

I believe that the motivation and context for minority pride movements are very different than that of those espousing “white pride”. If the motivation and context were the same, I would have no problem with someone saying they were proud to be white. I am not applying a double standard; I’m essentially saying that these are different actions based on the context and motivation.



Actually, racism wasn’t the first thing I thought when I saw Your original “what if” post. It’s usually, as when you posted it, meant as a counter point to minority pride movements, trying to draw an equivalence that just isn’t there. As noted before, pride in your skin color is a silly thing. “Black pride”, also as noted before, isn’t about pride in skin color: it’s about saying “I am proud of who I am despite people saying that I am a lesser person just because of my skin color.” It’s about affirming that they are worth just as much as anyone else.

As for white people being proud of their past and their culture, again, no one is stopping this. But it’s not about being “white”; there is no “white culture”. You are defending a possibility that just doesn’t exist. If someone is seriously talking about their pride in “white culture”, then they are most likely a white supremacist.

My main point of racism not being based on the past is that I fear we are "teaching" today's generation to feel that they are either victims of the past or that they are oppressors of the past. IMO, I see a young generation of minorities espousing the same rhetoric about slavery and brutality that frankly, is not the same as the past. We have to attack today's racism based on the facts of today and not from the past.

What do you think is the root cause then?

Concerning your point of toddlers, we do not consider toddlers equivalent to adults. So then, I have to ask do we consider a black person equivalent to a white person? It should be a simple yes or no question, right? If we say yes, then I would think the result of that is that they can perform any of the same actions or have any of the same beliefs? If a white person can do specific things that a black person can not do, then I would doubt the original premise that they are equivalent. If a black person can do specific things that a white person can not do, then I would doubt the original premise.

Considering white pride, why can't whites just be proud of who they are without insinuating anything else?

Concerning white culture as not being a "thing." IMO, to be fair we should either accept that all races can have their own cultures or that we should all merge our cultures into one culture and stop differentiating it.

Again, I will refer back to double standards as being destructive to a pure form of equality.

I've been though this same conversation with others. I understand your stance. I think we're going to run out of things to say soon if not already. I respect your stance and I respectfully disagree with it. It's ok that we can disagree because we both do not support racism. I think you should consider exactly what the root cause is and based on that we will approach our solutions differently. I appreciate the conversations we had here.

Thanks

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Do you think white males ever do anything blameworthy?

 

[Curious George]

Do you think white males ever do anything blameworthy?

White males as a group, or some people who are white males?

Or do you not see a distinction?

 

[Buddha Dharma]

White males as a group, or some people who are white males?

Or do you not see a distinction?

I thought my question was specific enough, but I guess not.