Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[Koldo]

-Like the OP mentioned, if she is Jewish, should she make that fact known just in case Tom is anti-semitic? Would the answer be different if she was in a place where most people are anti-semitic? Or, if she was a woman that has had a large number of sex partners, is she obligated to make this fact known, in case Tom doesn't want to sleep with a woman that has had a lot of sex partners? I guess the point of this question is, there are various things about a person that might turn the person off, even if they're not logical- is it the person's obligation to share details about him or herself in case the other person cares, or is it the person who has a particular hang-up's job to make sure none of his hang-ups are present before proceeding, assuming that there is no direct negative impact on the partner (like being HIV positive, or married, or something)? Does the frequency of the existence of that hang-up matter with regard to the answer?

Generally speaking, if something has been assumed to be true and it happens not to be the case, it should be cleared out.

 

[Penumbra]

Generally speaking, if something has been assumed to be true and it happens not to be the case, it should be cleared out.

I think people should be careful about what they assume to be true.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

The expectation of a person's apparent gender matching with their current physical form is a reasonable and reliable assumption most of the time; it is also a reasonable assumption (given the proportion of transgender individuals in general society) that this apparent gender was also the gender they were born with.

The question is, does the fact that this reasonable assumption is incorrect result in the transgendered individual developing the responsibility to dispel this misapprehension? This information (gender at birth) may or may not be relevant to the decision to have intercourse for the parties involved to give their informed consent. Clearly the transgendered individual has the benefit of being informed about their own situation, while the potential partner does not already know about their gender at birth, instead they have a reasonable assumption to the contrary (though relevant factors such as the location that their meeting took place at might well influence whether or not birth gender is relevant to both parties, for example in an establishment known for it's LBGT community, there is a higher likelihood that the individual will be transgendered or at least accepting thereof).

Is there sufficient reason to believe disclosure of their transgender history might alter their potential partner's decision? i.e. is there sufficient reason to believe that their partner might be one of the significant number of individuals who would feel betrayed/disgusted etc were they to discover someone they had slept with was transgendered? Noting that as mentioned earlier, sheer population statistics might indicate sufficient reason to assume they might be.

Is there sufficient reason to believe disclosure of their transgender history might endanger them? noting the rate of violence against said individuals, their location at the time the conversation might arise (i.e. the degree of privacy/security etc), the possibility of their status being gossiped about etc - though mind you this would not be an argument to engage in said relations without advising their partner, but rather to refrain from the coupling entirely.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think people should be careful about what they assume to be true.

Certainly. And it is also very true that having sex with someone barely known is always risky.

All the same, I can't very well fault anyone for making educated guesses and feeling hurt when they feel to have been misled.

I guess the rules are more strict when it comes to personal feelings and sex.

 

[gnomon]

Consider the following situation:

Two people are at a social gathering. One, call her Shirley, is an transgender woman, the other is a straight cis-male, call him Tom. Tom approaches Shirley, believing that she is a cis-female. They flirt and Tom takes Shirley back to his place where they end up in bed together, and eventually consent to intercourse.

Later on, Tom learns through a mutual friend, John, that Shirley is in fact a transgender woman, and was assigned male gender at birth. After that, Tom is angry, and refuses to approach Shirley. He claims he feels "violated" and was was “deceived”, and it was “unethical”, because if he’d known she was trans, he would not have consented to intercourse.

My questions:

1. Was Tom wrong to suddenly reject Shirley on the basis that she is transgender?
2. Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before consent?
3. Is it wrong for cisgender individuals to only prefer other cisgender individuals, to the exclusion of transgender people?

If you could explain why you answered the way that you did, that would be helpful.

Also you could imagine the situation mentioned above in reverse, but I don't think the answer should be different.

What if I changed the situation to where one individual assumed the other was of a certain sex and they developed a married relationship in which childbirth was an expectation but the other party was not forthcoming in their obvious inability to engage in such an option?

And what if I asserted that people who continue to use the term transgender when they should use transsexual are fools who fail to understand the true complexity of human sexuality and gender definitions?

Personally, if I somehow had sex with someone who later told me they were male at birth but had reassignment surgery due to their transsexualism or intersex issues I don't think I would care.

 

[Koldo]

I think people should be careful about what they assume to be true.

It all comes down to what extent it is reasonable to assume things, as it is inviable to live without making assumptions.
Do you think it is unreasonable to assume you are a woman if you look like a woman?

 

[Galen.Iksnudnard]

I've been thinking on this and here are some of my latest thoughts:

Some people asked what if Tom finds out about Shirley later in the relationship, when they might want to start a family. In my opinion it would be the right thing to do to Shirley to disclose the information, just because relationships need to have that element of trust. That said while it's the right thing for do, there is still no moral imperative for her to tell Tom that, and it was still wrong for John to disclose something that she felt private about.

As for picking someone up at a bar, I see it as being a different situation enirely. Instead of blaming a trans person for being trans, we need to challenge the cisnormative culture that makes it OK to assume that everyone is automaticaly assumed to be cis. It is not deceit for a trans woman to present as a woman, because (surprise!), SHE IS A WOMAN.

 

[LuisDantas]

I've been thinking on this and here are some of my latest thoughts:

Some people asked what if Tom finds out about Shirley later in the relationship, when they might want to start a family. In my opinion it would be the right thing to do to Shirley to disclose the information, just because relationships need to have that element of trust. That said while it's the right thing for do, there is still no moral imperative for her to tell Tom that, and it was still wrong for John to disclose something that she felt private about.

As for picking someone up at a bar, I see it as being a different situation enirely. Instead of blaming a trans person for being trans, we need to challenge the cisnormative culture that makes it OK to assume that everyone is automaticaly assumed to be cis. It is not deceit for a trans woman to present as a woman, because (surprise!), SHE IS A WOMAN.

How and why do you consider it wrong despite a perceived lack of a moral imperative that says that it is so?

Also, I think that challenging assumptions of cisgendering is a pretty tall order, and a far less urgent one than simple respect for transgenders. It is hard enough for people to remember that there are left-handers, and we are perhaps more than 10% of all people... it is more realistic and arguably fairer to share the responsibilities among both parties.

 

[Koldo]

As for picking someone up at a bar, I see it as being a different situation enirely. Instead of blaming a trans person for being trans, we need to challenge the cisnormative culture that makes it OK to assume that everyone is automaticaly assumed to be cis.

Statistics.
The vast majority of people that look like women are women. It is OK to assume it is a woman if it looks like a woman.
Plus, i don't see anyone blaming a trans person for being a trans at this topic.

It is not deceit for a trans woman to present as a woman, because (surprise!), SHE IS A WOMAN.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I've been thinking on this and here are some of my latest thoughts:

Some people asked what if Tom finds out about Shirley later in the relationship, when they might want to start a family. In my opinion it would be the right thing to do to Shirley to disclose the information, just because relationships need to have that element of trust. That said while it's the right thing for do, there is still no moral imperative for her to tell Tom that, and it was still wrong for John to disclose something that she felt private about.

How is John related to Shirley? I mean... if he knows, obviously it couldn't have been something she felt THAT private about.

 

[DallasApple]

Certainly. And it is also very true that having sex with someone barely known is always risky.

All the same, I can't very well fault anyone for making educated guesses and feeling hurt when they feel to have been misled.

I guess the rules are more strict when it comes to personal feelings and sex.

I agree.Because transexual's are such a small % of the population its not something that most would not assume.I just know I have never questioned if anyone I dated was or was not born with the physical body of a male.I don't think I was being overly presumptuous assuming.

The only times I have ever wondered that have been when I met a person where there were obvious typical physical attributes of both sexes.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Consider the following situation:

Two people are at a social gathering. One, call her Shirley, is an transgender woman, the other is a straight cis-male, call him Tom. Tom approaches Shirley, believing that she is a cis-female. They flirt and Tom takes Shirley back to his place where they end up in bed together, and eventually consent to intercourse.

Later on, Tom learns through a mutual friend, John, that Shirley is in fact a transgender woman, and was assigned male gender at birth. After that, Tom is angry, and refuses to approach Shirley. He claims he feels "violated" and was was “deceived”, and it was “unethical”, because if he’d known she was trans, he would not have consented to intercourse.

My questions:

1. Was Tom wrong to suddenly reject Shirley on the basis that she is transgender?

1. 
   
   Too late Tom, what are you going to do about it? I would say it is stupid considering Tom was out for sexual gratification and got it.
   
   

   [*]Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before consent?

   No, Tom is not obligated to know anything personal about someone he just wants to have sex with.
   

   [*]Is it wrong for cisgender individuals to only prefer other cisgender individuals, to the exclusion of transgender people?

I think it depends on the reason, I don't like vagina so wouldn't be with a trans man with a vagina.

 

[Koldo]

Let me put a spin in the matter:

Two people are at a social gathering. One, call her Shirley, is an transgender woman, the other is a straight cis-male, call him Tom. Tom approaches Shirley, believing that she is a cis-female. They flirt and Tom intends to take Shirley back to his place, however Shirley still hasn't undergone a sex reassignment surgery.

Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before they get to bed?

 

[DallasApple]

Let me put a spin in the matter:

Two people are at a social gathering. One, call her Shirley, is an transgender woman, the other is a straight cis-male, call him Tom. Tom approaches Shirley, believing that she is a cis-female. They flirt and Tom intends to take Shirley back to his place, however Shirley still hasn't undergone a sex reassignment surgery.

Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before they get to bed?

I fully believe so.I would be very shocked if I thought I was flirting with a man with man parts ..then when it came time to have sex upon disrobing a woman's body was under the covers with me ???That's not something so easily "shrugged off".I would be instantly confused.Might throw me off kilter.I don't know If I would be "angry" though.Just more like ...hang on ....wait a minute..HOLD your HORSES!!

 

[Alceste]

Hmmm... the problem I have with this interpretation is that Tom was attracted to Shirley UNTIL she said that she was assigned male gender at birth. All that really changed in the meantime is that Tom found out something about Shirley that she didn't like.

Also about functioning organs, there's no shortage of cis men with erectile disfunction or worse, yet they don't necessarily have the same stigma as trans people of any gender.

Say that Tom is an anti-semite doesn't like Jews. Shirley doesn't "look Jewish" as Tom might say, and Shirley converted to Catholicism a few years back. Would it be any different than say, instead of John revealing that Shirley is trans, John revealed that Shirley was born to parents of the Jewish faith?

Also for having to give consent, I'm mainly of Irish descent. Should I have to go around telling people I'm Irish before having sex, just in case people don't like Irish people? If not, how is this any different?

Also, the expectation that a trans-woman is supposed to explain to every potential partner that she used to have a penis kind of defeats the propose of gender reassignment. Is every woman who has had a boob job supposed to disclose her former cup size too?

 

[Alceste]

My personal feelings are that if you're going to have sex with someone after knowing him/her for just a couple of hours, you can't afford to be particularly picky about the details.

Exactly. Buyer beware.

Let me put a spin in the matter:

Two people are at a social gathering. One, call her Shirley, is an transgender woman, the other is a straight cis-male, call him Tom. Tom approaches Shirley, believing that she is a cis-female. They flirt and Tom intends to take Shirley back to his place, however Shirley still hasn't undergone a sex reassignment surgery.

Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before they get to bed?

Tom should do a quick manual inspection before issuing the invitation. Problem solved.

I fully believe so.I would be very shocked if I thought I was flirting with a man with man parts ..then when it came time to have sex upon disrobing a woman's body was under the covers with me ???That's not something so easily "shrugged off".I would be instantly confused.Might throw me off kilter.I don't know If I would be "angry" though.Just more like ...hang on ....wait a minute..HOLD your HORSES!!

Yeah - I don't think I'd be mad. I'd be surprised, but I think I'd want to see what he was planning to use for a penis before I rejected him because he hadn't gotten one attached yet.

Fun fact - one of the two women I had a serious crush on years ago is a dude now. I can't decide whether I would date him, but it's more because of the necessity of taking steroids forever than the state of his genitals.

 

[LuisDantas]

Also, the expectation that a trans-woman is supposed to explain to every potential partner that she used to have a penis kind of defeats the propose of gender reassignment. Is every woman who has had a boob job supposed to disclose her former cup size too?

I agree that it runs counter to the purpose of reassignment to some extent. I still feel that it is something that must be mentioned or at least implied if we are to expect some amount of mutual trust and acceptance.

 

[Galen.Iksnudnard]

I agree that it runs counter to the purpose of reassignment to some extent. I still feel that it is something that must be mentioned or at least implied if we are to expect some amount of mutual trust and acceptance.

I think that might apply for a long-term relationship, but if you're just trying to get laid, then that's a different story.

Well the way I see it is that there are lots of details about us that don't matter and that we can't see just by taking a look.

Our religion, our nationality, our sexuality, etc. Would every person who's changed their religion have to give disclosure? Anybody who was born in a different country? Anyone who has ever had a nose job or plastic surgery?

To me whether one is cis/trans is just another one of those things that is in the end inconsequental, especially in the situation I first mentioned in the begining of the thread.

 

[Aquitaine]

Meh, if you're out for quick casual sex with a stranger, you know the risks.

Had it of been something more long-term and serious though, then yes. Honest and trust n' all.

 

[Father Heathen]

I think it best that people take trust and honesty into consideration when it comes to sexual partners, and with meaningful relationships they should of course be a given. If someone doesn't consider those important factors, then they accept whatever surprises that may come their way.

Also, just how convincing is post-op cooch that a man would be none the wiser?