Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[DallasApple]

I just don't think we can over look the psychology of it.With Tom yeah I think if he did not want to have sex with with trans female he should not have picked up a stranger to hop in the sack with.But if he had asked her out to start dating I think never mentioning you were born a female with a male body at some point would be hiding to big of a part of your life with someone that may be hoping to have a future with you longer term.It for me wouldn't even be just about "body parts" but the whole experience growing up with a male body even after at some point knowing without a doubt she was a female trapped in the body of a male.To me that's more about intimacy /emotional intimacy than merely disclosing information about our physical bodies.

I don't think its something that you should blurt out every time you meet anyone that finds you attractive and vice versa..Like "hi I'm Shirley and I'm a trans female".But I think in getting to know someone on an intimate level..leaving that part out?Im just imagining how it could not come out in a discussion even when talking about our childhoods.What was your life like growing up?If the person can not accept it then really do you want to be with them in the first place?If you can't talk about something that monumental in your life then your relationship is superficial.

 

[Me Myself]

Was Tom wrong to suddenly reject Shirley on the basis that she is transgender?

No. Each individual has every right to decide who they do (or don't) want to have an intimate, sexual relationship and they can reject someone for any reason. In this specific case, I can completely understand someone wanting to discontinue a sexual relationship if they're heterosexual. I could understand it for someone of any sexuality considering sex reassignment surgery doesn't perfectly duplicate the sex organs of either biological sex. If you're just looking for sex, being with anyone with potentially sub-performing genitals is grounds for rejection, regardless of cis or trans status. Some of us might call that shallow, but frankly it's not our business to tell someone they ought to have sex with someone.

Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before consent?

They're not obligated, but it'd be rather unwise not to mention it beforehand given there's a good chance they're going to find out once the clothes come off. And then you end up with situations like in the OP which are awkward for everybody.

Is it wrong for cisgender individuals to only prefer other cisgender individuals, to the exclusion of transgender people?

Absolutely not. As before: each individual has every right to decide who they do (or don't) want to have an intimate, sexual relationship and they can reject someone for any reason. People have the every right to any kind of personal preference they want, actually, whether it's sex, favorite colors, automobiles, or restaurants.

I think I agree with all of this in general.

 

[Poeticus]

I can't help it, but...

I prefer cis-female.

 

[DallasApple]

They're not obligated, but it'd be rather unwise not to mention it beforehand given there's a good chance they're going to find out once the clothes come off. And then you end up with situations like in the OP which are awkward for everybody.

I think the "twist" in Tom's and Shirley's circumstances was he didn't know even AFTER the close came off.She had the outside body of a female to match her mental identity as a female.He found out through a mutual friend she was a trans female.

 

[Alceste]

I think the "twist" in Tom's and Shirley's circumstances was he didn't know even AFTER the close came off.She had the outside body of a female to match her mental identity as a female.He found out through a mutual friend she was a trans female.

I love the story line in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia where Mac dates a pre-op trans-woman. His conflict about it is pretty funny.

 

[Koldo]

Tom should do a quick manual inspection before issuing the invitation. Problem solved.

A manual inspection....?
At the risk of touching the....?

Not the best alternative. It is a lot easier if the trans woman simply say it.

 

[Koldo]

I just don't think we can over look the psychology of it.With Tom yeah I think if he did not want to have sex with with trans female he should not have picked up a stranger to hop in the sack with.

Even if Tom knew Shirley for months, it is possible that he might have never found it out by himself.

The same risk that Tom took by having sex with a stranger still exists, to a lesser extent, if he knew Shirley for a longer time period.

 

[DallasApple]

Even if Tom knew Shirley for months, it is possible that he might have never found it out by himself.

And I think that would not be right...IF it was clear he was interested in her and vice versa.

The same risk that Tom took by having sex with a stranger still exists, to a lesser extent, if he knew Shirley for a longer time period.

Of course its a risks.For anyone about anything.Haven't you ever watched "who the ****did I marry"?

But that's the point..if you have had a deeper (than one night stand) interest in a person and they still "withheld" something about themselves that is so "notable" at some point I would considerate an abuse of trust/deliberate deception.

If I found out today my husband of 25 years had been born a female physically (body parts) had a sex change operation before I met him at 16 ..and had never mentioned it?It would change our entire relationship.Shattering my trust.I would feel deliberately lied to disrespected (understatement).I would be angry.

Tom did NOT have that kind of emotional investment.He had a one night stand.

See the difference?In risk ?

 

[Alceste]

A manual inspection....?
At the risk of touching the....?

Not the best alternative. It is a lot easier if the trans woman simply say it.

Virtually all of my sexual encounters have been preceded by quite a lot of kissing, fondling and groping. Very few have been preceded by a verbal conversation where somebody says "Would you care to have sex with me?" out of the blue. If you're worried, just do a quick crotch fondle during the make-out session to make sure the object of your affection has the right equipment. If you find junk in the trunk, then you can politely say "I'm sorry, but I was expecting to find a vagina down there. I don't think this is going to work for me".

Basically, by saying it's her responsibility to disclose anything he might react to negatively, you're offloading his responsibility for his own feelings onto her. I just think that's childish. If he's that concerned about what's going on down below, it's up to him to verify it's in a form that is acceptable to him. It's his job to safeguard his feelings, not hers.

If you're hooking up with people you barely know, it's good policy to do a careful (though discreet) inspection of their genitals anyway, to help protect yourself from visible infections. If it doesn't look right for some reason, you're free to remove yourself from the situation. Hopefully with a reasonable amount of grace and tact.

 

[Koldo]

And I think that would not be right...IF it was clear he was interested in her and vice versa.



Of course its a risks.For anyone about anything.Haven't you ever watched "who the ****did I marry"?

But that's the point..if you have had a deeper (than one night stand) interest in a person and they still "withheld" something about themselves that is so "notable" at some point I would considerate an abuse of trust/deliberate deception.

If I found out today my husband of 25 years had been born a female physically (body parts) had a sex change operation before I met him at 16 ..and had never mentioned it?It would change our entire relationship.Shattering my trust.I would feel deliberately lied to disrespected (understatement).I would be angry.

Tom did NOT have that kind of emotional investment.He had a one night stand.

See the difference?In risk ?

I see it as a matter of proportions.
The problem is clear as water when there is a considerable emotional investment, but it is still there to a lesser, and yet significant, degree at one night stands.

 

[Koldo]

Virtually all of my sexual encounters have been preceded by quite a lot of kissing, fondling and groping. Very few have been preceded by a verbal conversation where somebody says "Would you care to have sex with me?" out of the blue. If you're worried, just do a quick crotch fondle during the make-out session to make sure the object of your affection has the right equipment. If you find junk in the trunk, then you can politely say "I'm sorry, but I was expecting to find a vagina down there. I don't think this is going to work for me".

If you are worried?
That's the point. You shouldn't have to be worried in the first place about this kind of thing.
You should certainly expect the other person to tell you this sort of thing beforehand.

Basically, by saying it's her responsibility to disclose anything he might react to negatively, you're offloading his responsibility for his own feelings onto her. I just think that's childish. If he's that concerned about what's going on down below, it's up to him to verify it's in a form that is acceptable to him. It's his job to safeguard his feelings, not hers.

I have the opposite view.
I think it is childish to think only of yourself when you are engaging in any sort of personal relationship with someone else.
It is childish to clean your hands of any responsibility you might have on hurting someone else's feeling.
By undisclosing something that has a considerable chance of being a deal breaker, and you know it, you are showing a huge lack of empathy.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I see it as a matter of proportions.
The problem is clear as water when there is a considerable emotional investment, but it is still there to a lesser, and yet significant, degree at one night stands.

I don't believe it is significant degree for a one night stand, is Shirley meant to be worried that every sex partner is transphobic? Do I need to divulge my ethnic background if I want to have sex with a guy just because he might have assumed I was a certain race that I am not and might have a problem if he knew where I am actually from?

 

[Poeticus]

Is it wrong that I prefer cis-females?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Is it wrong that I prefer cis-females?

How do you really know?

 

[Poeticus]

How do you really know?

As in, how do I know that I prefer cis-females?

 

[DallasApple]

The problem is clear as water when there is a considerable emotional investment, but it is still there to a lesser, and yet significant, degree at one night stands.
__________________

I agree..let that be a warning to one night stands.Emotional STD's so to speak.If you are that open to sleeping with rank strangers ??Don't cry a whole lot when you find out details about them after the fact you hate..PERIOD!

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

As in, how do I know that I prefer cis-females?

Yes. Prefer in what way?

 

[Poeticus]

Yes. Prefer in what way?

I just prefer a female that was born with the female genitalia.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I just prefer a female that was born with the female genitalia.

what if you couldn't even tell the difference?

 

[Poeticus]

what if you couldn't even tell the difference?

Then, I doubt every female that exists or has existed.