Is Jesus a golden calf?

[Khale]

Most people know the story of the Israelites and the golden calf. What a lot of people don't know is that the calf that was created was a sphinx like creature who's most prominent feature was its calf body. These creatures were believed to carry God down to earth. After a length of time people forgot God and began worshipping these sphinxes as God. Essentially they elevated something to a deific level because it was so close to the Holy One.

My Question then is this: Is it possible that Jesus might have been a good prophet (as many people believe) that was turned into a deity by his followers?

This question assumes that Jesus was at the very least a real person so answer accordingly.

 

[jewscout]

It is extremely possible!

 

[Lintu]

I don't see why not. Jesus distinguishes himself from God many times in the gospels, and in one of them (Luke?) he cries out to God, "Why have you forsaken me?" This does not sound like the reaction of someone who is God in human form. I just don't get the impression that he is supposed to be equal to God. Of course, there are also scriptural references that do give him divine characteristics, so it's hard to say.

The problem is that all of our references were written by people who could have wanted to make him look like God or whatever else they had in mind.

 

[Khale]

I don't see why not. Jesus distinguishes himself from God many times in the gospels, and in one of them (Luke?) he cries out to God, "Why have you forsaken me?" This does not sound like the reaction of someone who is God in human form. I just don't get the impression that he is supposed to be equal to God. Of course, there are also scriptural references that do give him divine characteristics, so it's hard to say.

The problem is that all of our references were written by people who could have wanted to make him look like God or whatever else they had in mind.

Here is an interesting little fact that I learned recently. The Line "Why have you forsaken me?" is actually the beginning to Psalm 22. The equivalent to saying something like Sticks and stones in response to an insult. That particular Psalm is a fairly hopeful one that describes how God is always near.

It is true that all of the references we have are written by people that wanted to make him look like God. Also, on top of that quite a bit, if not all, of the four gospels are Theology and not factual information.

 

[goodjewishboy]

Don't know if this is the right thread to post this in, but here's a short (and probably incomplete) list of requirements for the Moshiach (messiah)

First, the word Moshiach does not mean savior it translates to the anointed one.

following comes directly from www.jewfaq.org

The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought.

There are requirements that the Moshiach will fulfill:
-He must be in the direct line of King David (Jeremiah 23:5)
-He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments. (Isaiah 11:2-5)
-He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15)
- Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
- The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5)
-He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18)
-He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)

It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach.

Clearly Jesus did not fulfill the requirements, The world is not at peace, it's far from it. It is clear that the moshiach will be born naturally with a human mother and father. Nowhere in the Bible does it predict he (or she i guess) will be born to a virgin. The Jewish messiah is expected to return the Jews to their land and rebuild the Temple, Jesus was born before the exile and was born while the Temple was still standing and in use. The Jewish Bible says the messiah will redeem Israel, shortly after Jesus's death Jerusalem was laid to waste and the Holy Temple was destroyed, the Jewish people were scattered and percecuted for nearly 2000 years by the very people who claimed to follow Jesus Christ.

That's all I'm going to write, if you want to read more follow this link:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/pdf/RealMessiahBookPages_v4ab.pdf

 

[Khale]

Nowhere in the Bible does it predict he (or she i guess) will be born to a virgin.

No argument here. I don't believe I have read anything in the bible that actually predicts the birth of Jesus.

I do have a couple questions about the messianic predictions:

-What time period(s) were each of these predictions written and what was going on during that time period(s)?

-How likely is it that the prophets were writing what they expected the messiah to be and not what the messiah actually was to be?

One of the things I'd like to point out is that God often works in ways that seem to be at odds with what people think should happen. This is especially apparent in the Hebrew scriptures. Jeremiah was a prime example of this. God forces him to live a cursed life because he is doing Gods will. So much so that Jeremiah curses God on a number of occasions in some of the worst ways imaginable.

 

[Scuba Pete]

OK,

I just went down the requirements and failed to see the one he didn't fulfill. Maybe you could point this out... but a new thread may be appropriate for that discussion.

As for the question at hand... that predicates that Jesus was either a loon or a liar. Or that his followers completely misrepresented what he said, and so the same can be said about them. I see no reason to accept any of those premises.

The problem with “what if” questions, is that they go past any logical progression and bypass the real reasons for disbelief. You don't have to create a parallel philosophy in order to reject the Christ. Just say you don't believe and move on.

 

[Jaymes]

I just went down the requirements and failed to see the one he didn't fulfill. Maybe you could point this out... but a new thread may be appropriate for that discussion.

I must have missed the part where Jesus became a military leader and went into battle for Israel. I thought that wasn't his thing.

 

[Lintu]

OK,

I just went down the requirements and failed to see the one he didn't fulfill. Maybe you could point this out... but a new thread may be appropriate for that discussion.

Jesus was not a blood descendant of King David.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Is that it?

Do we have the lineage of Mary anywhere?

(But I do think we are off topic here).

 

[Scuba Pete]

I must have missed the part where Jesus became a military leader and went into battle for Israel.

And he is leading us to this day! Our Lord defeated even Death and leads forth the army of a Spiritual Israel against the forces of darkness.

 

[jewscout]

I just went down the requirements and failed to see the one he didn't fulfill. Maybe you could point this out... but a new thread may be appropriate for that discussion.

I already started a thread discussing whether or not Jesus was a Jewish Messiah

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6327

 

[Khale]

OK,

I just went down the requirements and failed to see the one he didn't fulfill. Maybe you could point this out... but a new thread may be appropriate for that discussion.

I would like to point out that the Messiah that the Jews had been hoping for would lead them to victory and establish them as the supreme race. This is not at all what Jesus did his followers were persecuted and the only thing he told them to do was to allow it to happen. The jewish messiah would have fought back and conquered those who had wronged them. I would also like to point out that they were speaking of victory literally in the physical world. None of this kingdom in heaven stuff that is prevalent today. (jewscout and goodjewishboy stop me if I've got this wrong)

As for the question at hand... that predicates that Jesus was either a loon or a liar. Or that his followers completely misrepresented what he said, and so the same can be said about them. I see no reason to accept any of those premises.

The question was not wether or not Jesus was or his followers were crazy. It was simply trying to see wether or not his followers made him into something he was not. The reason to accept the premise of this question is that it has happened before. In fact, if i understand correctly, it had happened many times before in the ancient world. It still happens today as well. There are people who worship Bob Marley as God because he played good music. It is not hard to believe that a radical person like Jesus could have been elevated like that.

The problem with “what if” questions, is that they go past any logical progression and bypass the real reasons for disbelief.

What if questions also create a better understanding of the faith in question. If you do not take the time to question your faith you will never truly understand it. If you never truly understand your faith it is inevitable that it will crumble under scrutiny.

You don't have to create a parallel philosophy in order to reject the Christ. Just say you don't believe and move on.

I am, quite frankly, appalled that you would tell me to denounce my religion because I had questions about it. Words like this are what taint the name of Christianity and turn people away.

 

[jewscout]

I would also like to point out that they were speaking of victory literally in the physical world. None of this kingdom in heaven stuff that is prevalent today. (jewscout and goodjewishboy stop me if I've got this wrong)

No i think you're right on the money!:jiggy:

 

[Scuba Pete]

I have to scoot Khale so I will make just one point...

I am, quite frankly, appalled that you would tell me to denounce my religion because I had questions about it. Words like this are what taint the name of Christianity and turn people away.

I would suggest that you have knowingly twisted my words here. Could it be that you don't want any answers that digress from your preconceptions?

You can't approach spiritual matters with your mind set dead on the physical. God is spirit and those who worship him must do so in spirit and in truth.

 

[HelpMe]

-He must be in the direct line of King David (Jeremiah 23:5)
-He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments. (Isaiah 11:2-5)

does anyone have a line back to king david?*also, i believe he was in line.

how will this be possible without a temple?

imo, no.

 

[Khale]

I have to scoot Khale so I will make just one point...

I am, quite frankly, appalled that you would tell me to denounce my religion because I had questions about it. Words like this are what taint the name of Christianity and turn people away.

I would suggest that you have knowingly twisted my words here. Could it be that you don't want any answers that digress from your preconceptions?

You can't approach spiritual matters with your mind set dead on the physical. God is spirit and those who worship him must do so in spirit and in truth.

Let's take a look at what I said:

Is it possible that Jesus might have been a good prophet (as many people believe) that was turned into a deity by his followers?

Now let's take a look at your reply:

You don't have to create a parallel philosophy in order to reject the Christ. Just say you don't believe and move on.

You just said that I created my question in order to reject Christ. You then followed by saying that I should Denounce him as my Lord and move on with my life. How on earth did I twist you words? Or did you sneakily hide some text elsewhere in your post? Could it be that your preconceptions are preventing you from looking at the original question with clear eyes?

 

[goodjewishboy]

I would like to point out that the Messiah that the Jews had been hoping for would lead them to victory and establish them as the supreme race.

Judaism is not a race, we do not hold ourselves higher than any other people. The Messsianic age will bring about the redemption of all nations. I don't disagree with the rest of your post. I've had someone tell me that since I've rejected Jesus than I must believe he was crazy or a liar, problem is that I never accepted him in the frst place. I believe by elevating Jesus to divine status, his follwers made him into something he is not.

 

[Lintu]

does anyone have a line back to king david?*also, i believe he was in line.

To be in line with David, he would have had to have a blood line relationship to David. This lineage must also go through Solomon. Even if Joseph was a descendant of David and Solomon, Jesus was not his biological son. Therefore, Jesus is not a descendant of David.

 

[HelpMe]

...Jesus was not his biological son. Therefore, Jesus is not a descendant of David.

there was a good reason for that.joseph's uncle or something inherited a curse from [yhwh].you don't have to be blood related to get to the throne, and he didn't have to be first in line.

sry for not having evidence to point to, if you doubt the curse i cited, request it and i'll get to it.