Viker
Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
More of the same? No fact as of yet.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Is Jesus Christ the True God?
- Thread starter questfortruth
- Start date
-
- Tags
- jesus christ
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..so why didn't Jesus make it very clear that "the law" was dead?
eg. Jesus continued to worship God in the synagogue
Why would God worship God in a synagogue .. it's nonsense.
Why did "Jewish Christians" worship in synagogues for centuries after his ascension?
..nothing new there .. they are the core of Judaism.
That's absurd.
A Muslim must love Almighty God more than his wife and family.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Viker once again... Hello!
I have the facts you have denial! Fact: There was a man 2000 years ago that claimed to be God!
Fact: There was a large group of people that claimed this man rose from the dead!
Fact is: These same people were willing to die for their belief in this man who rose from the grave!
Fact Is: Some might die for a good cause, but none will willingly die for a lie!
To reject this fact; you MUST also reject the constitution of the USA as not being factual!
Why not reject the authority of a Police officer or a Judge as un-factual?! You are not going to gain anything by living in denial!
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
...so why didn't Jesus make it very clear that "the law" was dead?
eg. Jesus continued to worship God in the synagogue
Why would God worship God in a synagogue .. it's nonsense.
Why did "Jewish Christians" worship in synagogues for centuries after his ascension?
*The new Commands Jesus brought were Love God & Love neighbor..
..nothing new there .. they are the core of Judaism.
*A "Master Slave" relationship lacks all forms of love!
That's absurd.
A Muslim must love Almighty God more than his wife and family.
Hello again...
Why would God worship God in a synagogue .. it's nonsense.
Why did "Jewish Christians" worship in synagogues for centuries after his ascension?
Jesus was a Man/God! Man MUST worship God! They (Christians) worshiped Jesus and Jesus allowed this worship of himself! Thomas (A Christian) worshiped Jesus "My Lord & my God"!
Jesus worship God his Father (as a man) The Word (God) became flesh he became Man! Perfect/good men worship God! Bad men reject the real God and make their own god/gods!
Jesus was 100% man thus he worshiped God still he was 100% God!
Why did "Jewish Christians" worship in synagogues for centuries after his ascension?
They started out as Jews all the Apostles were Jews! Gentiles (Non-Jews) also believed the good news of Jesus; this religion of true Worship started to be top heave with non-Jews! AT FIRST....
muhammad_isa at first, they worshiped in houses then they worshiped in the "Catacombs" because they were persecuted!
*The new Commands Jesus brought were Love God & Love neighbor..
..nothing new there .. they are the core of Judaism.
muhammad_isa God is LOVE! Your god is your master he is NOT Love! He demands an eye for an eye, A tooth for a tooth! Stone woman! Cut off the hand of the thief! Cut off the head of the sinner! You have a different god then I do My God is my Father!
You are a slave to your god you are nothing more than his tool!
Your words... Prove the point... A Muslim must love Almighty God more than his wife and family.
I reply: It is not true love; your so-called love is demanded as slave is demanded by his overlord!
muhammad_isa A Christian is in God' Holy Family to "Truly Love God or Neighbour" you MUST "Give of self" from the heart! Example of Jesus dying in our place out of perfect love.
1 John 4:20-21 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.
Anyone who loves God must also love wife and family!
muhammad_isa Whoever claims to love God yet does NOT love wife and family is a liar.
LOOK....
Luke 10:25
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
Question: Did Jesus lie!? Did the man answer correctly!?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..errr, that makes 200% ..
not 50% God, and 50% man?
Yes, including Jesus.
Jesus couldn't have been a Christian, because there was no such thing in his times.
That's right, and there was controversy over what the new converts should observe.
It was decided at the Council of Jerusalem, that new converts were not required to get circumsied, amongst other things.
..but then the Jerusalem Church collapsed, when the temple was destroyed.in 70CE.
Yes, the synagogues were only houses..
..not true love?
Many Christians fear God .. if you do not fear God, then your faith is not complete.
You seem to live in a "cotton-wool-world", and I can assure you that this life and the life hereafter is not guaranteed to be that.
satan will want you to think that .. he wants you to be off guard.
Why would you think that only people that follow your creed are capable of that?
Last edited:
Viker
Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Written and recorded only well after the alleged event.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
Fact: There was a man 2000 years ago that claimed to be God!
Fact: There was a large group of people that claimed this man rose from the dead!
.
Viker hello once more...
1. Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62-113):
They (Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food, but of an ordinary and innocent kind (Epistles 10.96).
2. Tacitus (A.D. 60-120):
Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue (Annals 15.44).
3. Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37-100), the great Jewish historian of the times, was born shortly after the death of Jesus, and wrote about him in a famous (and famously disputed) passage known as the Testimonium Flavianum (“The Testimony of Flavius Josephus”). It’s disputed because most scholars believe that later Christian interpolators doctored the text to make it appear that Josephus was attributing more to Jesus than what, in all likelihood, Josephus actually had done. Since Josephus was not a Christian, it’s hardly plausible that he composed these disputed sections. Fortunately, it’s pretty easy to spot what likely didn’t come from Josephus’s own hand (indicated below by brackets):
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man [if indeed one ought to call him a man], for he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people who accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. [He was the Messiah.] When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. [On the third day, he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him.] And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared (The Antiquities of the Jewish People 18.3.3).
&
Possessed of such a character, Ananus [the high priest] thought that he had a favorable opportunity because Festus was dead and Albinus was still on the way (Festus and Albinus were Roman governors.). And so he convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others (The Antiquities of the Jewish People 20.9.1).
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
............................errr, that makes 200% ..
not 50% God, and 50% man?
Yes, including Jesus.
Jesus couldn't have been a Christian, because there was no such thing in his times.
That's right, and there was controversy over what the new converts should observe.
It was decided at the Council of Jerusalem, that new converts were not required to get circumsied, amongst other things.
..but then the Jerusalem Church collapsed, when the temple was destroyed.in 70CE.
Yes, the synagogues were only houses..
..not true love?
Many Christians fear God .. if you do not fear God, then your faith is not complete.
You seem to live in a "cotton-wool-world", and I can assure you that this life and the life hereafter is not guaranteed to be that.
satan will want you to think that .. he wants you to be off guard.
Why would you think that only people that follow your creed are capable of that?
muhammad_isa Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man he is a Man/God! There was a Christian that rejected Christian teaching his name was "Arius" he rejected Christians he said Jesus is Not God! Christians removed Arius as a False Teacher! This was the reason for the Church Council of Nicia!
.......................................................................
Wikipedia
The First Council of Nicaea was the first ecumenical council of the church. Most significantly, it resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Nicene Creed. With the creation of the creed, a precedent was established for subsequent local and regional councils of bishops (synods) to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy—the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom.[8]
,
Derived from Greek (Ancient Greek: οἰκουμένη, romanized: oikouménē, lit. 'the inhabited one'), "ecumenical" means "worldwide" but generally is assumed to be limited to the known inhabited Earth,[9] and at this time in history is nearly synonymous with the Roman Empire; the earliest extant uses of the term for a council are Eusebius' Life of Constantine[10] around 338, which states "he convoked an ecumenical council" (σύνοδον οἰκουμενικὴν συνεκρότει, sýnodon oikoumenikḕn synekrótei)[11] and a letter in 382 to Pope Damasus I and the Latin bishops from the First Council of Constantinople.[12]
One purpose of the Council was to resolve disagreements arising from within the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in his relationship to the Father: in particular, whether the Son had been 'begotten' by the Father from his own being, and therefore having no beginning, or else created out of nothing, and therefore having a beginning.[13] St. Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius took the first position; the popular presbyter Arius, from whom the term Arianism comes, took the second. The Council decided against the Arians overwhelmingly (of the estimated 250–318 attendees, all but two agreed to sign the creed, and these two, along with Arius, were banished to Illyria).[8][14] ETC
...........................................................................
they started out as Jews all the Apostles were Jews!
Your words... Yes, including Jesus.
Jesus couldn't have been a Christian, because there was no such thing in his times.
My reply: Jesus Christ had followers... They called themselves "Christians because they followed Christ"! You are NOT Christian you are Muslim because you follow the teaching of Mohamad!
People that follow the teaching of "Budda" are called Buddhists! THE...
.
muhammad_isa the word "Christ" means Massiah! Jesus the Massiah!
........
Gentiles (Non-Jews) also believed the good news of Jesus..
Your words..... That's right, and there was controversy over what the new converts should observe.
It was decided at the Council of Jerusalem, that new converts were not required to get circumcised, amongst other things.
..but then the Jerusalem Church collapsed, when the temple was destroyed.in 70CE.
My reply: The ONLY Church Jesus established is still here today: It is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established it on ROCK; built on ROCK 2000 years ago it still stands never to fail!
The Early Church went through growing pain... It eventually ended up in Rome where it was made the Religion of the world by the emperor! The Jerusalem Church collapsed but it was established outside of Jerusalem. Today there are over 1.2 billion Catholics all worship Jesus!
...........
Your words..... Many Christians fear God .. if you do not fear God, then your faith is not complete.
You seem to live in a "cotton-wool-world", and I can assure you that this life and the life hereafter is not guaranteed to be that.
satan will want you to think that .. he wants you to be off guard..
I reply: Fear of God is fear of offending God by sin! Christians do not want to offend God because God is our Father out of respect for our Father, we do not want him hurt!
A Christian is in God' Holy Family to "Truly Love God or Neighbour" you MUST "Give of self" from the heart! Example of Jesus dying in our place out of perfect love.
You are NOT in God' family you are not his child Jesus is NOT your brother! You have a different god then me yours is your "Master" you mean little to him! Satan hates Love, he hates Jesus, he is Anti-Christ, he is Anti-Christian!
Muhammad came along 600 years after Jesus! He rejects Jesus, his teaching was Jesus is not God! Muhammad did not preach "Love"! The god Muhammad taught was a god as your Master a god where you are slave! Muhammad was Anti-Christian; he was Anti-Christ!
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
That is a saying of men, established by vote at an ecumenical council.
It is also illogical.
If I said that a cloth was 100% cotton and 100% wool, it would be deemed illogical.
This is an argumentum ad populum fallacy..
..that something is true, because a majority of bishops voted it to be true.
Yes, Jesus is the promised Jewish Messiah.
..and we know that he will return to fulfill his role, according to the scriptures.
There is nothing wrong with "serving God"..
..most Christian clergy do that, do they not?
You must be joking..
Why did trinitarian Christians seek to annihilate Arian Christians?
Was that out of love, that they despised their fellow men, who were believers in Jesus and the Gospel?
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
muhammad_isa Hello I hope all is well....
First... Christians have an almighty God. My God, the God of the Christian can do anything he wants to do, the Christian God can take any form he wants to take; He can take the form of a "Burning Bush" or even smoke! The True Almighty God of Christians took the form of a man two thousand years ago! Two thousand years ago people could not wrap their mind around a "Man/God"! Jews to this very day still cannot believe Jesus was the Messiah!
God lives outside of Time & Space he can take any form he wants even the form of Bread! Today two thousand years after Jesus walked the earth in the form of man people have a hard time believing God can take the form of Bread & Wine!
Matthew 26:26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
muhammad_isa From John 6:45 down to John 6: 59 is God teaching! God taught us: His flesh is real food... Jesus cannot lie!
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
The Jews cannot believe Jesus is God John 6:52 (above) they only believe Jesus is a man!
muhammad_isa Christians have always believed our God is almighty our God can take any form he wants to take! Christians have always believed Jesus is God in the form of a man!
You reject what Christians believe your god is NOT almighty you have placed your god into a box you have set limits on your god, on what your god can and cannot do! REJECT.....
muhammad_isa reject what Christians believe it does not matter; the Anti-Christ rejects the truth also; Satan is the father of lies! The Anti-Christ is Anti-Christian just as Mohammad was and just as Muslims are today! I don't expect you to reject the lies of the Anti-Christ; you are a follower of Mohammad!
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..and peace be with you also.
You have not answered my question..
Why did trinitarian Christians seek to annihilate Arian Christians?
Was that out of love, that they despised their fellow men, who were believers in Jesus and the Gospel?
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
...and peace be with you also.
You have not answered my question..
Why did trinitarian Christians seek to annihilate Arian Christians?
Was that out of love, that they despised their fellow men, who were believers in Jesus and the Gospel?
muhammad_isa you are a little mixed up... First thing I point out to you is: "Arius" was a Christian! Arius was AMONG Christians; Christians were NOT Among Arius.
This is Scripture Prophesy! (below) This prophesy can only work in the one direction Christians were NOT among Arius!
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
muhammad_isa Arius was rejected as a "False Teacher." He was deemed to be a Heretic! He was removed from among Christians he was NOT "annihilate" he was "alienated" he was treated as a Pagan! Arius taught the same as Muhmmad taught also teaching; Jesus is NOT God!!
Arius was removed from "The Way of Truth"!
Matthew 18:15
“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
muhammad_isa a Pagan is a person outside of God' family.
Was Arius' removal out of love? NO! Arius was removed because of truth! There can only be "One Truth." 2+2=4
There can only be "One God"! The Christian rejects the Muslim religion for the very same reasons... There is ONLY one God, one Truth, one religion! Satan hates Truth he is the father of lies; Arius was a child of Satan! He rejected the truth for a lie! Jesus is God! Christians have always believed Jesus is God!
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
That's absurd..
So-called Arians were Christians.
Constantine the Great, himself, got baptised by an Arian priest shortly before he died .. he repented.
So -called Arians believed in loving G-d and their neighbours.
You must be deluded if you think otherwise.
It was trinitarians that accused others of heresy, and waged war on them .. and G-d knows the truth of these claims.
It's abhorrent. Voting on what G-d is or isn't is no more than a political exercise .. and waging war on such a basis is not loved by G-d.
Freedom of religion is taken for granted these days .. and we should be aware of how people were threatened by death for not believing the official Roman creed.
It has nothing to do with love, and everything to do with corruption and love of power.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The differences in interpretation regarding the nature of Jesus came to a head in the fourth century. Basically, the Arians lost and the Trinitarians won. Thus, while Arians might be considered Chrsitians, they are viewed by Christians as heretics.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I know they are considered by trinitarians as "heretics".
In 1934. Bauer endeavored to rethink Early Christianity historically, independent from the views of the current church. He stated that the 2nd-century church was very diverse and included many "heretical" groups that had an equal claim to apostolic tradition. Bauer interpreted the struggle between the orthodox and heterodox to be the "mainstream" Church of Rome struggling to attain dominance. He presented Edessa and Egypt as places where the "orthodoxy" of Rome had little influence during the 2nd century. As he saw it, the theological thought of the "Orient" (in this case the Eastern Roman Empire) at the time would later be labeled "heresy"
Diversity in early Christian theology - Wikipedia
That's about the size of it .. it's political in nature.
While Constantine was emperor, he organised the Council of Nicea for political reasons, but he later repented, and died as a so-called Arian.
This belief about Jesus did not start with Arius at all. It is a common trick in conjuring .. put the focus on to one place/person, in order to deceive.
There are no "winners" concerning "the truth" in this life.
Did the Christians that were persecuted before Constantine lose?
No .. and neither did the so-called Arians.
Their reward is with G-d.
In fact, when Justinian waged war against Christians in communities that were no longer part of the empire, he had a temporary victory.
..and it was then that Muhammad, peace be with him, was born .. we cannot expect to make up things about G-d and get away with it in the long run.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I have to take issue with the general thrust of your post. Arianism is no longer a viable alternative in Christianity. The issue has been decided, and it was decided in favor of the Trinitarians. Now, I don't have to like that. and you don't have to like that. But we have to accept the truth of the matter.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Well, that is false.
We have a minority of Christians who are not trinitarians.
JW's are one such example, but there are many others.
I know what you mean when you say "Arianism", as it is the way we describe a particular flavour of belief .. but it wasn't started by Arius, and you can't prove that it was.
That's absurd.
If you want to see Chrsitianity as an official state-religion, then OK.
Otherwise, what some council decided on, and built on in a series of councils, is not a way to determine truth.
It is merely argumentum ad populum.
I accept that the majority of Christians are trinitarians, but
I prefer to consider all historical information, as well as the "church father" argument,
We can't determine truth by ignoring things that don't suit us.
..and that is what it's all about, isn't it? The truth?
Our salvation, and eternal life?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Oh puhleeze. There are 2.2 billion christians in the world, and only a mere 8.5 million Jehovah's witnesses. That like a drop of water in a bucket, a mere 0.3%. I think you are in denial.
Last edited:
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..denial of what?
I am well aware that the vast majority of Christians are trinitarians.
..that they believe in the Divinity of Jesus.
@Dogknox20 claims that "the Christian God" is one of love, and "the Muslim God" is not.
That defies the historical records about how it came to be so.
i.e. by declaring all other creeds as heretics and persecuting them
That is not love. Mankind should not persecute others for their belief. We know the result of that .. corruption and oppression.
Of course, if a community or nation is using threatening behaviour against another, that is a different matter.
..but as far as I understand, the Roman Empire was laying the law down, and saying what you could believe and what you could not.
That is unacceptable.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
.
Arianism was the first of the great heresies. There had been from the foundation of the Church at Pentecost A.D. 29 to 33 a mass of heretical movements filling the first three centuries. They had turned, nearly all of them, upon the nature of Christ.
muhammad_isa to be Christian you must believe what Christians believe! Christians believe Jesus was God!
Arius rejected Jesus as his God! I am not a Muslim because I do not believe what Muslims believe; I reject the Muslem religion on the grounds there can only be One Gd and One Truth! Arius did not believe what Christians believe! He was Anti-Christ he was Among Christians he came out from among us!
Look at this warning....
John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
The Anti-Christ will come from among Christians! The Anti-Christ is "Anti-Christian"! "Muhammad ibn Abdullah" was NOT AMONG Christians BUT...
muhammad_isa but Muhammad was still doing the work of the Anti-Christ he was attacking Christian belief just as Arius!!