Is Jesus God?

[Trailblazer]

There is every reason for the distinction, Tb.

Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. B. is not.

Dream on.

#1800 Trailblazer
#1801 Trailblazer

It is not I who is dreaming, Tb.

Wake up and read:--

Titus 2:13; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 1:8; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17; Revelation 1:7; 2:8; 1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 5:4; Mark 14:61-62; Daniel 7:13-14; Mark 2:3-12; Matthew 2:11; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28;

Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 8:34-38; 1 Corinthians 15:3-7; Matthew 28:9; Luke 24:36-43; John 20:26-30, 21:1-14; Acts 1:3-6

samtonga43 believes that those verses mean that Jesus is God, so I looked up all these verses to see if any of them show that Jesus is God. I see no indications of any such thing but since I did all this work I decided to start a new thread for people to comment upon.

Using your analytical and logical abilities, does anyone see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God? I see several verses that would indicate that Jesus is not God, but I am all worn out so I am not going to say anything right now.

Titus 2:13;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Philippians 2:5-8;
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 1:8;
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

John 1:3;
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16-17;
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Revelation 1:7; 2:8;
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

1 Corinthians 10:4;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Peter 5:4;
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Mark 14:61-62;
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14;
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Mark 2:3-12;
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Matthew 2:11; 28:9, 17;
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Luke 24:52;
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

John 9:38; 20:28;
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Matthew 25:31-46;
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 8:34-38;
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

1 Corinthians 15:3-7;
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Matthew 28:9;
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Luke 24:36-43;
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

John 20:26-30, 21:1-14;
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
21 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.

2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

Acts 1:3-6
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

 

[stvdv]

Is Jesus God?

Yes

Using your analytical and logical abilities, does anyone see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God?

Yes

 

[Trailblazer]

Is Jesus God?

Yes

Yes

Using your analytical and logical abilities, do you see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God?
Are there any other Bible verses that show that Jesus is God?
If there are no Bible verses that show that Jesus is God, why do you believe that Jesus is God?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

samtonga43 believes that those verses mean that Jesus is God, so I looked up all these verses to see if any of them show that Jesus is God. I see no indications of any such thing but since I did all this work I decided to start a new thread for people to comment upon.

Using your analytical and logical abilities, does anyone see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God? I see several verses that would indicate that Jesus is not God, but I am all worn out so I am not going to say anything right now.

Titus 2:13;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Philippians 2:5-8;
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 1:8;
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

John 1:3;
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16-17;
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Revelation 1:7; 2:8;
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

1 Corinthians 10:4;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Peter 5:4;
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Mark 14:61-62;
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14;
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Mark 2:3-12;
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Matthew 2:11; 28:9, 17;
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Luke 24:52;
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

John 9:38; 20:28;
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

(Continued on next post)

No. Only when they’re twisted, and other Scriptures ignored.

Keep in mind that Christendom has had 1700 years to alter certain verses to suit their trinitarian agenda. But almost always (though not in every case), the immediate surrounding context (and understanding the Greek grammar) will refute that understanding.

 

[Truthseeker]

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

At least in this translation, it appears that Paul thought Jesus was God. But that does not mean Jesus is God. This is the only place in all of Paul's writings where he said something like "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". In all of the rest of his writings he said things like Jesus was made in the "image" of God, which is consistent with the Baha'i concept of a Manifestation of God.

However there are different translations: Look at this translation:

who though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,

Being in the form of God, in both of these translations, as a Baha'i means He reflected all the attributes of God. Some translations go over the line in my opinion, and interpret more than translate and say Jesus is God or something to that effect. A lot of translations I see online, a majority of them do say something like "thought it not robbery to be equal to God."

See all the translations yourself: Philippians 2:6 - Bible Gateway.

About Thomas saying "My lord and my God", this means Thomas thought Jesus was God, perhaps, if you trust the accuracy of the scripture. This was when Jesus invited him to touch his wounds.

 

[Trailblazer]

Keep in mind that Christendom has had 1700 years to alter certain verses to suit their trinitarian agenda.

Thanks, I never thought of that, but now that you mention it it makes sense why they would have an agenda.

 

[oldbadger]

samtonga43 believes that those verses mean that Jesus is God,

Hello again!
Yeah, some Christians really push that idea, to the point where they can claim that it was Jesus who led the Israelites out of Egypt, or knocked down the walls of Jericho, and that every word in the bible was from him.

But Deists can't help you that much because we accept that Jesus WAS a part of God. But so are you... even the chair you sit upon..... every particle in existences... part of God.

Using your analytical and logical abilities, ...

Ah.... that's a problem. After studying bus timetables I've occasionally got on the wrong bus, going in the wrong direction. But I'll try....

...does anyone see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God? I see several verses that would indicate that Jesus is not God, but I am all worn out so I am not going to say anything right now.

Trouble is, Christians had lots of time to fiddle with and manipulate their bible, just as they fiddled with, manipulated and reversed in to other cultures and religions. Dodgy.

And fundamentalist Christianity can be dodgy and dangerous, in my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trouble is, Christians had lots of time to fiddle with and manipulate their bible, j

And that explains a lot.

 

[viole]

samtonga43 believes that those verses mean that Jesus is God, so I looked up all these verses to see if any of them show that Jesus is God. I see no indications of any such thing but since I did all this work I decided to start a new thread for people to comment upon.

Using your analytical and logical abilities, does anyone see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God? I see several verses that would indicate that Jesus is not God, but I am all worn out so I am not going to say anything right now.

Titus 2:13;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Philippians 2:5-8;
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 1:8;
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

John 1:3;
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16-17;
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Revelation 1:7; 2:8;
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

1 Corinthians 10:4;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Peter 5:4;
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Mark 14:61-62;
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14;
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Mark 2:3-12;
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Matthew 2:11; 28:9, 17;
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Luke 24:52;
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

John 9:38; 20:28;
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

(Continued on next post)

If He is, then there are too many graven images of Him around.

Ciao

- viole

 

[blü 2]

At least in this translation, it appears that Paul thought Jesus was God. But that does not mean Jesus is God. This is the only place in all of Paul's writings where he said something like "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". In all of the rest of his writings he said things like Jesus was made in the "image" of God, which is consistent with the Baha'i concept of a Manifestation of God.

However there are different translations: Look at this translation:

who though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,

Being in the form of God, in both of these translations, as a Baha'i means He reflected all the attributes of God. Some translations go over the line in my opinion, and interpret more than translate and say Jesus is God or something to that effect. A lot of translations I see online, a majority of them do say something like "thought it not robbery to be equal to God."

See all the translations yourself: Philippians 2:6 - Bible Gateway.

About Thomas saying "My lord and my God", this means Thomas thought Jesus was God, perhaps, if you trust the accuracy of the scripture. This was when Jesus invited him to touch his wounds.

My RSV substantially agrees: "6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,"

This is about Paul's Jesus, who like the Jesus of the author of John but unlike the synoptic Jesuses, is a gnostic-influenced figure who pre-existed in heaven with God and in the role of the gnostic demiurge ('craftsman') created the material universe. Here John's Jesus is in 'the form of a god' only in the sense that he so pre-existed and by inference was created by God. But Paul is completely clear that Jesus is not God ─

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

I suspect I'm telling you what you already know ─ if so, apologies.

 

[stvdv]

Are there any other Bible verses that show that Jesus is God?

YES, this one: “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

 

[Nimos]

Using your analytical and logical abilities, does anyone see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God? I see several verses that would indicate that Jesus is not God, but I am all worn out so I am not going to say anything right now.

When I read the bible, I didn't at any point get the impression that Jesus were God, and as you know im an atheist so I don't have a bias towards one or the other view being true. Obviously this doesn't mean that Jesus ain't God.

I guess one could make a case for it being so, if one nitpick and interpret certain verses to specifically mean that. But when you take a step back and look at it from a broader perspective, there are some very weird stories in the bible, if Jesus were in fact God.

For me the following examples would be amongst the best to cast doubt on it, but there are many many more. But first, Jesus being baptized.

If Jesus claimed to be God, why would he need to be baptized? And from the story it seems that John the baptist simply did this to reveal Jesus, besides that it doesn't seem to have had any purpose, from what I can see. Obviously there can be some symbolic meaning besides that.

But when one read the story itselfs, if becomes very weird if Jesus is God.

Matthew 3:13-17
13 - Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.
14 - John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 - But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.
16 - And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
17 - and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

So if Jesus is God, then his own spirit or the holy spirit comes upon him, and he then decide to speak to himself to tell everyone standing there how pleased he is with himself? And also to refer to himself as Son? That sounds very weird to be honest.

The next one is the temptation of Jesus by Satan.

Matthew 4:1
1 - Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

So God led himself to be tempted by Satan? This is very weird, first of all because Satan must know who Jesus is, if he is God. So how stupid must Satan be to even try this?

Matthew 4:3
3 - And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”

Apparently Satan doesn't know who Jesus is? as he refer to him as the son of god...

Matthew 4:8-10
8 - Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
9 - And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”
10 - Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”

This becomes very strange, so Satan tries to tempt God to worship him by offering him every kingdom on Earth? Why would God care about it, let me remind you he created EVERYTHING!!, he already owns it all and much much more, so why should he care?

It becomes even stranger, because it seems that Jesus also doesn't know who he is Because he tells Satan to worship God, which he apparently doesn't know is himself. What is going on here?

Next we have the death of Jesus:

John 19:14-15
14 - Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!”
15 - They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

Here the people that don't like Jesus, doesn't refer to him as having claimed to be God, but merely that he is not the King or the Messiah, they don't deny God, and clearly they are not referring to Jesus as claiming to be God either.

What a Messiah means to the Jews is this:
In Jewish eschatology, the term came to refer to a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who will be "anointed" with holy anointing oil, to be king of God's kingdom, and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age. In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a pre-existent divine Son of God. He is considered to be a great political leader that has descended from King David, hence why he is referred to as Messiah ben David, 'Messiah, son of David'. In Judaism, the messiah is considered to be a great, charismatic leader that is well oriented with the laws that are followed in Judaism. He will be the one who will not "judge by what his eyes see" or "decide by what his ears hear."

This is what they don't believe that Jesus is and this is his crimes for which they want him dead. He claims to be the Son of God and a King, which they didn't buy.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 - On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 - And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Why would Jesus tell people this, if he were God? It's such a weird way of talking, to the point where it makes no sense if we are to believe that Jesus is God. He specifically say that "only those that does his father's will, will go to heaven." Why not say, do my will, if he is God?

So again, people can and have made a case for the holy trinity, but to me, the general impression when you read the bible, is that Jesus does not see himself as God, but as the Son of God.

 

[SalixIncendium]

In my understanding, yes. So are you. So am I. So is he. So is she. So is this. So is that.

You may see where I'm going with this...

 

[pearl]

There are texts that may seem to imply that the title God was not used for Jesus.
Texts where the use of God for Jesus is dubious.
And texts where Jesus is clearly called God, Jn 1:1, Prologue to John's Gospel.
The Prologue's hymnic confession "The Word was God" does not have the same ideological content found in Nicaea's confession that the Son was "true God of true God." As a long philosophical development separate the two.

The clearest example in the NT of the use of "God" for Jesus, Jn 20:28. Jesus is addressed as
God (ho theos mou). The scene is designed to serve as a climax to the Gospel; as the resurrected Jesus stands before the disciples, one of their number at last gives expression to an adequate faith in Jesus. From Hebrew Scripture; Ps 35:23, "My God and my Lord". Another possibility Christians use of such a confessional formula was catalyzed by Domitan's claim to the title dominus ef deus noster.
Christians gave Jesus the title kyrios, the standard Septuagint translation for YHWH.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

samtonga43 believes that those verses mean that Jesus is God, so I looked up all these verses to see if any of them show that Jesus is God. I see no indications of any such thing but since I did all this work I decided to start a new thread for people to comment upon.

Using your analytical and logical abilities, does anyone see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God? I see several verses that would indicate that Jesus is not God, but I am all worn out so I am not going to say anything right now.

Titus 2:13;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Philippians 2:5-8;
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 1:8;
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

John 1:3;
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16-17;
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Revelation 1:7; 2:8;
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

1 Corinthians 10:4;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Peter 5:4;
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Mark 14:61-62;
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14;
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Mark 2:3-12;
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Matthew 2:11; 28:9, 17;
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Luke 24:52;
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

John 9:38; 20:28;
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

(Continued on next post)

Well, how about that God manifested Himself in Jesus?

 

[Trailblazer]

YES, this one: “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

I know that the Jews accused Jesus if claiming to be God, but can you cite any Bible verses where Jesus claimed to be God?

Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

May 28, 2014 by Kermit Zarley2 Comments

The Gospel of John relates one incident in which the Jews accused Jesus of “making himself equal to God” and another incident in which they said to him, “you, though only a human being, are making yourself God” (Jn 5.18; 10.33). (All scripture quotations are from the NRSV.) Since Christians have been taught that Jesus is God, they have been taught that these Jews were correct in making these accusations. But in each instance, Jesus’ immediate response represents a denial of those allegations (Jn 5.19-46; 10.34-38). In the second incident, did they charge Jesus with making himself “God,” as has been traditionally translated, or “a god”? In the Greek text of Jn 10.33, the word for “God,” theos, does not have the article, thus making it “a god.” But English Bibles don’t translate it that way. Versions with “God’s Son” include the NIV, NRSV, NEB, and versions with “the Son of God” include KJV, NASB, ESV.

Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

(To see a titled list of over fifty, two-three page posts (easily accessible) about the Bible not saying Jesus is God, click here.)

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, how about that God manifested Himself in Jesus?

Yes, that is what happened.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[John1.12]

Using your analytical and logical abilities, do you see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God?
Are there any other Bible verses that show that Jesus is God?
If there are no Bible verses that show that Jesus is God, why do you believe that Jesus is God?

John 1.1

 

[Trailblazer]

John 1.1

Most Christians believe that John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 mean that Jesus was God. I do not believe that those verses mean that Jesus is God. God cannot become a man because God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. We know Jesus was not God because Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. God sent Jesus and Jesus manifested God in the flesh.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:1-3 are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made through God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.